Snape Survey, Snapeity, Dumbledore's sacrifice.

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 149139


> "Magpie" <belviso@> wrote: 
> 
> > if he trusts him, why would he plead
> > for Snape not to betray him just 
> > because Snape has entered the room? 
> 

Eggplant:
> If you're incapacitated and prostrate on the floor and your tormentors
> speak to your "friend" as an ally as he enters the room and your
> "friend" has a look of extreme hatred as he looks at you and then your
> "friend" takes out a weapon and aims it at you then it may be time to
> reevaluate your friendship.   

Sydney:

Please, my dear, PLEASE go AND READ THE PASSAGE.  Read it SLOWLY.  I
quoted it in it's entirety.  If you don't trust me, haul out your own
copy of HBP.

The PLEADING COMES FIRST, AS SOON AS SNAPE COMES IN.  

First of all, Dumbledore is hardly going to be shaken merely by the
DE's 'speaking to Snape as an ally'.  Snape is a DOUBLE-AGENT. 
Dumbledore freakin' sent him HIMSELF to BE ONE.  And he didn't wait
for the DE to even finish what he was saying.  Snape does not even fix
his glance on Dumbledore before Dumbledore says his name. This is what
we have:  "... the door to the ramparts burst open once more and there
stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the
scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to the four Death
Eaters, including the enraged werewolf, and Malfoy."  Then Amycus gets
his short line, which is interrupted.  THAT'S when Dumbledore say's
"Severus..." in a pleading tone.  If Snape's wearing a look of hatred
at this point (or anything but a look of panting, LOL), Dumbledore
would not be able to immediately associate it with Snape looking at HIM.

Dumbledore begins pleading immediately upon Snape entering the scene
and taking it in.  Snape's been up there for, what, 5-7 seconds?   Act
it out yourself.  Go ahead.  Take a stopwatch.  Rember to start at a
run, like Snape.  I won't laugh.  I've done it myself a couple of
times for the sake of this post, and generally I hit around 4.3
seconds, but let's be generous.  How long does it take you to enter a
room and have a quick stock-taking look-- and it's quick, we're told
his eyes 'swept' the scene?  Snape doesn't even know what's going on
at this point-- he's just sprinted up from the dungeons because he
knows Death Eaters are in the castle.  Now, let's suppose you're
EVIL!Snape who's trying to take over the world.  Once he had figured
out that his rival Dumbledore was incapacitated, then he could drop
the mask and make a decision to kill him.  But he has to figure out
what's going on first. How long does THAT take?  I tend to measure
time in 24ths of a second, and you would be amazed how long a real
change of thought and expression takes.

Now, still with the acting out, because sometimes in complicated
scenes like this it's helpful.  You are Dumbledore.  You are
surrounded by enemies, you're sick as a dog from this potion thing. 
And in comes Snape.  Who you believe to be your ally, right?  What's
the FIRST THING YOU FEEL?  Relief?  HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE YOU REALIZE
THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG?   Honestly now.  Even if you're 150 years old
and the cleverest guy in the world.  It takes waaaay more than 7
seconds.  It takes way more than seeing Snape coming in at a dead
run-- A DEAD RUN, mind you, this all happens very quickly-- coming to
a stop, and scanning around trying to figure out what he's looking at.
 You need a CUE from Snape that something is wrong.  But Snape has not
yet had time to give any such cue.  He has only had time to think,
"What's all this then?".  

Dumbledore's PLEADING NECESSARILY PRECEDED SNAPE MAKING ANY SORT OF
DECISION.  IT'S IN THE TEXT.  I'm sorry for the caps, but for the love
of mike, this is not THAT HARD.

*presses fingers to temples*  

Dumbledore says Snape's name pretty much as soon as he sees him--
interrupting the DE who's saying something, not waiting to see what
course of action his double-agent is going to choose.  I would be
totally with you on the ambiguity if he was not described as
'pleading'-- and 'pleading' in such a way as to chill Harry's blood. 
Without that descriptor, maybe the "Severus..." could be to give an
instruction, or to buy some time, whatever.  But we are specifically
told that Dumbeldore is pleading-- to reiterate-- AS SOON AS HE SEES
SNAPE.  He knows, even before Snape has a chance to asses the
situation, that he had to ask Snape to do something that he really,
REALLY is not going to want to do, something that even Dumbledore is
very unsure that he IS going to do.

Dumbledore at this point trusts Snape, right?  RIGHT?  He asked Harry
to go and get him when the returned to the castle, after Dumbledore
was already extremely ill, so it's not like, I dunno, this is the
version of Harry Potter where Dumbledore actually doesn't really trust
Snape, but keeps insisting that he does to people because, I don't
know why.  I mean, let's say that D-dore knows all about the 3rd part
of the Vow (as I certainly think), but let's say that he thinks Snape
will 90% not break the vow, and kill D-dore when the time comes, and
D-dore is against this.  Then his 'I trust Snape' reassessment comes
waaaaay before Snape comes up that tower, and then THAT doesn't make
sense with Dumbledore asserting to Harry that he trusts Snape
completely 2 hours before this scene and sending Harry to go fetch
Snape and no one else, when he knows he's sick from the poison and
Snape will be antsy about letting Dumbledore die through any other
means than Snape killing him.

So I'll say it again.  The Dumbledore who is pleading with Snape is
the same one who trusts him completely.  The only alternative is a
typo that transposed the line where Harry is frightened by
Dumbledore's pleading voice to the wrong part of the passage, to
before Snape could have formed an evil plan or Dumbledore could have
anticipated it. You are free to theorize such a typo, or you are free
to theorize a JKR who was simply careless and forgot to put the
pleading in the logical place. Or you are free to say, 'at the expense
of what the text clearly says, I'm going assume, because of what
happens afterwards, that Snape gave some sort of cue to Dumbledore
that he had switched sides, and that Dumbledore absorbed this cue and
did a 180 on his assesment of what Snape was likely to do-- BEFORE
SNAPE HAS DONE ANYTHING OTHER THAN ENTER THE SCENE. And neither
Snape's 'I'm evil' cue, nor Dumbledore's change of mind, are in the
text or even given a reasonable vacuum to exist in the text, but this
is fine with you.  If you just say that, then I'll leave you alone. <g>

The scene on the Tower works brilliantly (and economically!  until I
typed it out I'd totally forgotten how short it was!), because it's
written first for HARRY, who is essentially an audience member at this
point.  It's written so that to HARRY-- who never trusted Snape, who
didn't respect Dumbledore's trust for him, who is in shock-- to Harry
there is no doubt what he is seeing.  It works for the casual reader
because it goes by so fast, and the reader is likely to be in Harry's
same mental space.  

It ALSO works if, like me, you had anticipated the Curse, the Vow,
Dumbledore's character, and Snape's character, colliding in just such
a way as that OF COURSE Dumbledore is at some point going to have to
plead with Snape not to break the Vow.  

And it works, if you'll give it a chance, if you read it the first
time thinking, OMG Snape killed Dumbledore, the bastard!!  and then
when you read it more slowly and carefully and logically, and say--
wait, something's hinkey here-- DUMBLEDORE trusts Snape, even if I
never did-- why does he start pleading right away?  Where's the bit
where he realizes he's been wrong?  

I'm spending this much time laying this out because I LOVE all the
levels this scene works at I just can't stand anyone missing out on
it.  Because it's FANTASTIC.  


> > but the greatest likelihood of outcome is 'lose'.
> 
> Although Snape was outnumbered he was clearly far more powerful than
> any of the other Death Eaters, they were scared to death of him, even
> the mighty werewolf. 

I know, isn't he COOL?  But he'd be inconvenienced by the handicap of
being DEAD.  Unbreakable Vow?  Remember that?  The one that says if he
doesn't complete Draco's task if Draco seems unable to, that he'll
drop dead?

-Sydney