Snape Survey, Snapeity, Dumbledore's sacrifice.

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 149144

Sydney:
<SNIP>
> So I'll say it again.  The Dumbledore who is pleading with Snape is
> the same one who trusts him completely.  The only alternative is a
> typo that transposed the line where Harry is frightened by
> Dumbledore's pleading voice to the wrong part of the passage, to
> before Snape could have formed an evil plan or Dumbledore could 
have
> anticipated it. You are free to theorize such a typo, or you are 
free
> to theorize a JKR who was simply careless and forgot to put the
> pleading in the logical place. Or you are free to say, 'at the 
expense
> of what the text clearly says, I'm going assume, because of what
> happens afterwards, that Snape gave some sort of cue to Dumbledore
> that he had switched sides, and that Dumbledore absorbed this cue 
and
> did a 180 on his assessment of what Snape was likely to do-- BEFORE
> SNAPE HAS DONE ANYTHING OTHER THAN ENTER THE SCENE. And neither
> Snape's 'I'm evil' cue, nor Dumbledore's change of mind, are in the
> text or even given a reasonable vacuum to exist in the text, but 
this
> is fine with you.  If you just say that, then I'll leave you 
alone. <g>

Alla:

No, sorry, I disagree. First of all, it is NOT a fact that JKR is 
obligated to describe in details DD change of mind about Snape's 
loyalties. Yes, yes, I know rules of storytelling, etc. I don't 
think that JKR is obligated to follow all rules of storytelling, if 
such rules exist.

Second of all, even if JKR wanted to show DD shock, she as I said in 
the earlier post IMO she had shown it VERY clearly, through Harry's 
eyes. You may think it is not enough for you, you may think it 
breaks some rules of storytelling, but IF the shock that Harry feels 
from DD pleading is genuine, it is quite enough for me to see DD 
shock even if through Harry's eyes.

So, no, I don't think it is a typo, I think Harry's frightening of 
DD voice is where it is supposed to be and YES, I read the text 
several times.

And yes, I think it can easily point to guilty Snape.


Sydney: 
>> I know, isn't he COOL?  But he'd be inconvenienced by the 
handicap of
> being DEAD.  Unbreakable Vow?  Remember that?  The one that says 
if he
> doesn't complete Draco's task if Draco seems unable to, that he'll
> drop dead?

Alla:

How do you know when exactly the UV kicks in? There is no time frame 
in it, so maybe it would let Snape to start fighting, thinking that 
Snape would complete Draco's task eventually in an hour or something 
after showing on the Tower.

Since, I don't think that by starting fight Snape would necessarily 
starts suicide, I do think that Snape did own it to Dumbledore to 
try.

Ala wrote earlier:
IMO we clearly see that DE on the Tower respect
> > Snape and defer to him. Do I think he can lead this bunch if he 
so
> > desires in the absence of Voldemort? I sure do, I think he can
> > handle them.
> 
> 
> Magpie:
> He may be the coolest, most badass DE to our eyes, but he has 
never been 
> shown to inspire the kind of respect, love and fear Voldemort (or 
> Dumbledore) have.  Not even close.  He is far easier to kill, 
given that as 
> far as we know he has no horcruxes.  No one is afraid to say the 
name 
> "Severus Snape."  He's been humiliated and insulted plenty of 
times in 
> canon.  He's had multiple meltdowns over not being respected.  The 
DEs may 
> be in awe for one beat in the scene (greatly due to Dumbledore and 
the 
> situation, imo, not just Snape personally scaring them--they know 
the 
> history between Snape and Dumbledore) but they in no way respect 
him the way 
> they do Voldemort.  They quite possibly defer to him because of 
Voldemort's 
> faith in him, not because none of them would challenge him without 
> Voldemort's backing.  <snip>
Alla:

Erm.... Now I am confused. Why do you think that only wizard of 
Voldemort's caliber can lead DE? I mean, sure, Snape is no 
Voldemort, although there are plenty of possible parallels in canon 
between two of them, IMO.

Personally as I said many times I think that JKR did a much more 
effective job portraying Snape as a villain than Voldemort, but sure 
so far Voldemort is more powerful in general ( not that Snape lacks 
potential IMO)

BUT IMO Snape does not HAVE TO be just as powerful as Voldemort is, 
in order to be in charge of DE. All that he needs is respect of the 
DE and as I said IMO it is clear that they do respect him from the 
Tower scene.

It is irrelevant IMO that they may not respect him as much as they 
respect and fear Voldemort. All that is needed for Snape to take 
Voldemort's place is to be sure that DE does not respect anybody 
else more than Snape AFTER Voldemort is gone.

You said that Snape was humiliated in canon. Sure he was, but not by 
DE. I don't think that the majority of them even know about Snape's 
humiliations. All that they know is that Snape had become 
Voldemort's right hand, most trusted man, no? I'd say it is enough 
reason to respect and fear Snape. 

And IMO it will not be hard task to achieve for Snape. After all 
Dumbledore is gone already, and either Harry will kill Voldemort and 
then Snape will make a move on Harry or Voldemort will kill Harry 
and then Snape will try to take Voldemort on.

So, yeah, I think it is possible scenario that Snape wants to get 
rid of both DD and Voldemort and that is why he needs Harry alive.

Speculative? Sure it is. Out of realm of possibilities, I don't 
think so.

JMO,
Alla, who thinks that it is just as likely that Snape just want to 
join the winning side without taking Voldemort's place.