Hermione must be stopped, ...-Hermione's Crimes

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 149330

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at ...>
wrote:
>
> katssirius:
> > > She was judge, jury, and warden for Rita Skeeter at the age
> > > of 14.  Hermione knows what is right for house elves in 
> > > spite of the up close example of Winky.  
> > 
> > Hickengruendler:
> > 
> > I cannot blame her for blackmailing Rita. Sorry, maybe I'm an
> > old  cynical, but Rita was deliberatly destroyng other people's
> > lives with half trues and outright lies. 
> 
> Ceridwen:
> I couldn't stand Rita Skeeter.  ...  But the point is, Hermione
> is fourteen.  It isn't her place to do any of this.  This is 
> completely Hermione thinking she knows more than anybody, including 
> Dumbledore.
> 
> [..cut from last paragraph...] But, I think that most of this was 
> about Hermione stepping into shoes that are still years too big 
> for her.  It was not her place to do any of this. 

bboyminn:

So, by your way of thinking, it wasn't Harry's place to go after the
Stone in the first book, neither was it his place to go to the Chamber
of Secrets and rescue Ginny in the second, nor to help Ron escape from
Sirius Black in the third, etc.... If Harry took your attitude, the
world would be destroyed. If he sat back and let the adults handle it,
pretty much ALL would be lost.

There is an old saying, 'All that must be done for Evil to flourish,
is for good men to do nothing'. Harry and Hermione are not willing to
stand aside and do nothing. They are not willing to let Adults handle
it when clearly the adults are NOT handling it. 

All the other kids in the school were cozy in their bed when most of
the action happens, they are willing to not get involved, they are
willing to trust the adults to deal with things. At least most of them
are. However, there are a rare and brave few like Neville in the
Battle at Hogwarts, who are willing to do /something/, who are willing
to charge into the heat of battle because they understand that not
doing so has far greater and far graver consequences. 

The greatest people in the world were not people who stood by and
quietly followed convention. They were innovators, they were creative
thinkers, they were rebels, and because they could see farther and
deeper than the teaming masses, they accomplished great things. This
is something to be admired.

Now on to Hermione's crimes -

> Ceridwen:
> 
> It is never her place to play vigilante.  Not with Umbridge - 
> Harry thought of it late, but he thought of it - Snape was there,
> the only remaining member of the Order. ...
> 

bboyminn:

A quick look at Harry and Snape's relationship should explain this.
Snape is at best Harry's adversary, at worst, his enemy. Perhaps not
in reality, but in Harry's mind and his attitude. It would never occur
to Harry, under any circumstances, to go to Snape for help. Snape is
the bringer of misery, not the bringer of help; at least in Harry's mind.

Regarding Umbridge, Umbridge is foul, as foul as they come. She was
about to commit a capital crime, a felony, when Hermione stopped her.
There wasn't a lot of time here to develop a detailed plan, so she
made it up as she went along. I'm sure in the brief seconds she had to
conceive the plan, she envisioned, the Centaurs chasing Umbridge away
and letting the young 'foals' go. 

Seems a simple enough plan. She could not predict that the Centaurs
would react so harshly and unfavorably. And what were the
alternatives? She and her crew were already captured by the
Inquisitorial Squad. They were already in Umbridge's office. Umbridge
was about to commit an 'unforgivable' crime. At that point, the
situation was desperate, and, as they say, desperate times call for
desperate measures. So, I can forgive her for the mistake, especially
since in the long run, she did accomplish her goal, and while people
may have been hurt, no one was actually harmed.

> Ceridwen:
>
> And, not with Rita Skeeter. It was no more her place to imprison
> Rita Skeeter in a jar than it was right for the MoM to imprison 
> Sirius Black without a trial.  ...  Hermione's action here was 
> pure vigilantism.
> 

bboyminn:

I'll make some allowances here for 'heat of the moment' in your
statements. By your way of thinking, your apprarent moral standards,
Hermione should have turned everything over to the 'adults', and let
them send Rita to prison. That would have been the 'right' thing to do.

Yet, Hermione does show some mercy. So, she kept Rita in a jar for a
couple of days, and let her go when they got to London. Sorry, but big
deal. Hermione futher convinced Rita that it would be in her best
interest to not write anything for a year to break her of the habit of
writing lies about everyone. And Hermione was right, it was in Rita's
best interest to do just that. Again, that seems very mild compared to
the alternative. Rita's not really complaining because she knows she
is getting off extremely easy. 

So, doing what you seem to think is morally /right/ would have been
devistating to Rita. It would have meant prison, and probably ruined
her career and her reputation. Doing what you seem to think is morally
/wrong/, Rita is a bit inconvenienced for a while. Again, I think if
we left it up to Rita, she would gladly choose your 'wrong' over your
'right'. 

> Ceridwen:
>
> And, not with Marietta Edgecomb.  Marietta, ..., had a real 
> crisis in her personal life over the vow.  There was a conflict
> that a fifteen year old child will find difficult if not 
> impossible to handle.  

bboyminn:

What Hermione did to Marietta never really bothered me. While Harry's
little club as against the rules, it wasn't causing any harm, and
Marietta was benefiting from it.  What does bother me is that Hermione
hasn't UNDONE it. 

Hermione still has time to redeem herself of this act. In the next
book, she could get tired of Marietta's punishment, and directly or
indirectly, pass on the information on how to get rid of the spell and
the spots. I really hope this happens. Marietta made a mistake, but at
some point, considering things worked out in the end, that mistake
must be forgiven. 


> Ceridwen:
>
> Children should go to their parents with crises like this.  ...
> 

bboyminn:

Surely you jest! Yes kid /should/ go to their parents in situations
like this, but they never do. I think you forget that Children live in
their own private world that has it's own standards and rules.
Further, and infinitely more important, is that in a child's mind,
every encounter with adults ends up with the kid getting into trouble.
It's amazing, and scary, what 'crimes' kids will ignore to avoid
getting into trouble. Why do you suppose School Bullies get away with
so much stuff? Because the 'code of the playground' says you don't go
running to adults and rat out other kids out. 

Ron displays this attitude very clearly when he is convinced that he
will be blamed for Fred and George leaving school. The same when he
refuses to write home for a new wand, he is convince he will get into
further trouble; that is will instigate another Howler. That's how
kids think. Because adults are forced into the disciplinarian role,
kid always associate them with trouble, and kids will do anything to
avoid trouble with adults, even if it means compounding that trouble
to unfathomable levels.


> Ceridwen:
> 
> And, yeah, the birds.  Ron got clawed and bitten by them. They
> broke skin. Not nice. But as someone else said, this does look 
> like Hermione acting like a normal teen for once, jealous and 
> petty and vindictive.  I don't think she should have done it. 
> Feeling like that is one thing, acting on it is another.
> 

bboyminn:

Unfortunately, what you think doesn't matter (in the story: no; in
this group: yes).

Let's let the victim speak for himself. Ron seems to have forgiven
Hermione pretty easily, and I'm sure now they probably all laugh about
it over a nice ale. I'm not really sure that an observer should be
more incensed than the victim.

I think we can let Ron decide for himself just how 'horrible' this
particular crime was. 

There it is; for what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn