[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione the Vigilante?

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 149339

Luna:
> In most children stories, the "bad behaviors" are ruthlessly
> punished. I see Jo following the same pattern. Jo already told us
> that Hermione and Dumbledore were the characters she used as her
> voice. I see Hermione as the character that Jo is also using to
> impart some level of justice or punishment to wrong doers.

Magpie:
And I'm happy to say I don't trust that.  I don't think Hermione or 
Dumbledore are set up as so superior to the other characters so that their 
actions should be seen as a hand of justice rather than their doing 
something to support their own agendas.  I don't read a lot of JKR's 
interviews, but does she say Hermione is speaking for her on all matters of 
justice, or is Hermione more of an exposition machine?  I honestly think 
she's more used as that.  There are plenty of times when Hermione is more 
sensible or is right when others are wrong, but I think in those times it's 
backed up in the text.

For instance, the house-elves are a prime example of Hermione putting forth 
a moral view, and JKR probably agrees with the principle that slavery is 
wrong, but she still obviously shows Hermione as making a lot of mistakes in 
the way she deals with them, and writes the conflict as anything but a clear 
case of Hermione being right.  Dumbledore makes mistakes as well.

Luna:
> Hermione's actions are not isolated events or product of her
> capricious mind but rather the consequence of a series of events.
> Her punishments, although severe, do not seem to have a lasting
> effect (I don't agree with the idea that "poor Edgecomb girl" is
> marked for life. In HBP she could dissimulate her marks under make-
> up, which means that the marks are erasing little by little)

Magpie:
Why does it mean that?  It's been months and they're still there. You can 
hide bad acne under make up.  If they're supposed to disappear slowly I 
think the way to write that would be to say they had faded towards the end 
of OotP.  Having her show up with tons of make-up in HBP does not say 
they're fading, it says they're still there. We never see the pimples gone, 
we never get anything that tells us they're fading, just different ways of 
telling us she's got something to hide on her face.

Luna:
and
> seemed to be just the right dose to serve wrong-doers well. Seeing
> these punishments, I think it was very civilized of Jo not to have
> Rita smashed, or Umbridge cut into pieces or the Edgecomb girl
> dropping dead the moment she betrayed everyone.

Magpie:
I don't think it was civilized, I think it was in keeping with the level of 
realism in her books.  In fairy tales people have their eyes plucked out and 
drop dead.  You can't do that in a book where death is real.  All of HBP, 
after all, centered around the importance of the act of killing someone. 
Harry's reaction to almost killing someone was realistic and taking in the 
horror of hurting a human being--not the response of a children's story 
where someone drops dead or the shallow tough-talk recommended where normal 
people squash others like a bug and never feel remorse.  You can't have it 
both ways, either pain and death are real or they aren't.

It's hard in this universe because there is slapstick mixed in with real 
horror.  But none of this, imo, means we have to check our own instincts at 
the door and just listen to Hermione.

Luna:>
 Judging Hermione as a flesh and blood moral
> person instead of seeing her for what she is: a character in a
> children / young adult book serving the author to advance a plot,
> is, well, kind of interesting but not very constructive.

Magpie:
But these books are about ethical issues, among other things.  Sometimes the 
characters are acting in ways that are supposed to reflect reality.  Granted 
the realism changes at different times, and I do think it's best to judge 
the characters based on the way the scene seems to play.  But I don't think 
it's always so cut and dried in this series.  Even when characters get their 
comeuppance we often see them later, suffering, which kind of makes it more 
realistic.

I'm not actually judging Hermione as a flesh and blood mortal at all.  If 
she were a real person my reactions to her actions would be far more 
extreme.  I'm judging her as a fictional character within this universe. As 
I said, I accept all of her actions.  But I don't feel like I'm wrong by 
having my own honest reactions to what she does in the context of the book. 
More than once times when I have reacted to something more negatively and 
others thought it was just supposed to be funny or comeuppance, I think the 
narrative came down validating my own twinges.

Bottom line is I feel it's totally bizarre to write a book with scenes built 
up from different characters with different motivations, where the ethical 
issues just are not that clear, and then say that the point is to get people 
to flatten it out, ignore the shades of grey, and make it into something 
simplistic.

Luna:>
> BTW, I don't see Hermione as being especially manipulative... Can
> you give me some examples of Hermione being manipulative?

Magpie:
Off the top of my head?  Well, the centaurs, obviously, because regardless 
of her motives, which I don't need to be reminded of, her plan was to use 
the centaurs' dislike of humans and easily offended natures to manipulate 
them into taking care of her enemy, especially once the enemy insulted them. 
It's the definition of manipulation.  She's also manipulative when she 
invites Cormac to a party in order to make Ron jealous.  She forces Rita to 
do her bidding via blackmail.  There's a place where she manipulates Hagrid 
in, I think, PS/SS.  She tries to trick the house elves into freeing 
themselves by leaving hats around.  She confunds McClaggen so that Ron will 
be Keeper.  (It's even on Hermione's advice that Ginny becomes "herself" and 
gets Harry's attention.)

I'm not condemning her for all these actions.  Other characters manipulate 
as well--it's human nature.  But I'm honestly shocked anyone would read OotP 
especially and not see Hermione as enjoying to plan and scheme, or know how 
other people are behaving and why.

-m