Hermione the Vigilante?

[lunamk03]

No: HPFGUIDX 149393

Magpie <belviso at ...> wrote:
<snip> 
> Magpie:
> And I'm happy to say I don't trust that.  I don't think Hermione 
> or Dumbledore are set up as so superior to the other characters 
> so that their actions should be seen as a hand of justice rather 
> than their doing something to support their own agendas.  I don't 
> read a lot of JKR's interviews, but does she say Hermione is 
> speaking for her on all matters of justice, or is Hermione more 
> of an exposition machine?  I honestly think she's more used as 
> that.  There are plenty of times when Hermione is more sensible 
> or is right when others are wrong, but I think in those times 
> it's backed up in the text.

Luna:
I don't remember saying that Hermione was morally above other 
characters or that Jo was placing her above other characters. All 
I was doing is explaining the facts:

- Some characters were punished
- The character imparting the punishments was Hermione
- These are characters in a book written by JKR.

Which leads me to the conclusion that:  the person writing the books 
chose Hermione as a vehicle to impart punishment to those characters 
that she reckoned deserved it.
 
Not necessarily the person imparting a punishment is morally above 
the person in the receiving end. This is really naïve as a concept. 
Unfortunately, in real life, we see a lot of people with poor moral 
concepts in positions of power. In HP books, the children, who are 
the protagonists, seem to be the ones with more moral backbone. So, 
Jo chose one of her children characters to impart the punishments 
that she thought they deserved in the degree she considered best. I 
don't see Hermione's own agenda here.
   
You can agree with Jo or not, but that won't change the facts.


> Magpie:
> Why does it mean that?  It's been months and they're still there. 
> You can hide bad acne under make up.  If they're supposed to 
> disappear slowly I think the way to write that would be to say 
> they had faded towards the end of OotP.  Having her show up with 
> tons of make-up in HBP does not say they're fading, it says 
> they're still there. We never see the pimples gone, we never get 
> anything that tells us they're fading, just different ways of 
> telling us she's got something to hide on her face.

Luna: you might be right, but, honestly, I don't really worry too 
much about it. This girls violated a magical contract, she got what 
she deserved. Now, I do wish Jo would have a little heart and make 
her marks go away, I agree that Marrietta should have learned her 
lessons by now.

>snip 
> 
> Magpie:
> But these books are about ethical issues, among other things. 

Luna:
Ethical issues, I agree. But obviously, to Jo it is not ethical to 
play blindly by the rules instead of having the courage of doing 
what you know it is the right thing to do at the moment. It wasn't 
ethical for Hermione (and for Jo) to allow Umbridge to cruciate 
Harry. It wasn't ethical for her either to have Rita sent to 
Azkaban, knowing what was awaiting her. Instead she did the moral 
choice to put her in a Jar for a couple of days and then make sure 
she wont go around destroying people's lives with her false 
statements, this is what I guess you consider manipulation. Betrayal 
is not ethical for Hermione (and clearly not for Jo), so she made 
sure that whoever betrayed the DA, would pay a high cost for it. You 
could argue that Marrietta was doing what she considered to be "the 
right thing" but by doing it, she was incurring in an even 
worst "sin:" selling the DA members for her own safety and a pardon 
to remain in school. This, I hardly can consider ethical.
 
Also, in all these punishments, the people in the receiving end are 
as, or even more, responsible for their faith than Hermione. 
Marietta could have abandoned the D.A. without betraying them, 
specially knowing what would happen to the group. Umbridge could 
have shut her mouth instead of calling the centaurs "half-breed" or 
trying to put Harry in a Cruciatus curse. 

Had Hermione played "by the rules" and done the "ethical thing" 
Harry would have been cruciated stupid, Rita Skeeter would have been 
sent to Azkaban (then who would have written Harry's article in 
OOP?), and Harry with other 25 students would have been expelled 
from school and possibly sent to Azkaban just for wanting to have a 
DADA study group to pass their exams. Wanting to pass your exams, is 
it a crime?

Sometimes we all face situations of adversity where we all need to 
be manipulative in order to save or protect someone we care about or 
for the greatest good. Extreme situations call for extreme actions. 

 
snip 
> Bottom line is I feel it's totally bizarre to write a book with 
> scenes built up from different characters with different 
> motivations, where the ethical issues just are not that clear, 
> and then say that the point is to get people to flatten it out, 
> ignore the shades of grey, and make it into something simplistic.

Luna: On the contrary, as you can see in my comments above, there 
are plenty of grey shades in Hermione's choices.  

snip
> She's also manipulative when she invites Cormac to a party in 
> order to make Ron jealous.  She forces Rita to do her bidding via 
> blackmail.  There's a place where she manipulates Hagrid in, I 
> think, PS/SS.  She tries to trick the house elves into freeing 
> themselves by leaving hats around.  She confunds McClaggen so 
> that Ron will be Keeper.  

Luna: I have, however, to concede the fact that Hermione does tend 
to impose herself, more like an over protective mother or big 
sister. She likes to impose her ideas on others. This is part of 
her character challenges. I'll also concede that her methods to 
free unwilling elves weren't correct. At least Ron complements her 
in that aspect. She also was manipulative with McLaggen in order 
to make Ron jealous, but the again, she paid the price by having a 
crappy date. Love, my dear, makes us do stupid things sometimes! 
Hermione happens to be a human being (at least in the books) who 
can have feelings and, as many people do, can't help to act on them.

Hermione is learning, she's growing up and eventually she'll get 
there. But, honestly, I don't see Hermione's actions as crimes for 
which she deserves to be punished.

> (It's even on Hermione's advice that Ginny becomes "herself" and 
> gets Harry's attention.)

Luna: Giving an advice to a friend... Now, is it called being 
manipulative? Now I start to see why you see Hermione as being so 
manipulative.
 
> I'm not condemning her for all these actions.  Other characters 
> manipulate as well--it's human nature.  But I'm honestly shocked 
> anyone would read OotP especially and not see Hermione as enjoying 
> to plan and scheme, or know how other people are behaving and why.


Luna:
Honestly, I see Hermione wanting to pass an exam and helping Harry 
to tell the world about LV return...  Why should I be shocked to see 
an inteligent person being able to make a plan and carry it out or 
knowing how (some) other people behave. How is she supposed to be? 
Someone who has no ability to plan or to foresee someone's reaction? 
This sounds to me like someone who, well, is not very normal or 
healthy.