[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione must be stopped, ...-Hermione's Crimes/Trusting Snape

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 149412

Nrenka:
> YMMV, but I don't perceive 'manipulative' as a neutral word at all.
> It's generally used to imply that one is doing something specifically
> for one's own personal gain above anything else, and that one is
> doing something with shady intent that you hope the objects of your
> manipulation won't pick up on.  If one states that parents are
> manipulating their children, for instance, it's almost always a
> statement of disapproval.
>
> I suspect that's some of what dissenting listies are objecting to,
> the connotations of the word.

Magpie:
I'm glad to clear up that I was not expressing disapproval of Hermione every 
time I felt her actions were manipulative, then.:-)  I thought it just 
seemed very straightforward that it was the most obvious thing to call it--I 
can't think of any other word.  Just as I'd say Harry is being manipulative 
when he gets the memory out of Slughorn, and Draco's manipulative when he 
gets Harry out to the midnight duel.  I like both those scenes in canon 
(one's for a good cause, one's for personal gain).  Sometimes it's downright 
satisfying and fun to watch a character being manipulative.  In my mind the 
difference is sometimes that when you call a person manipulative in real 
life what you often mean is that their manipulation is crude so that you see 
them doing it.  A good manipulator is just smooth and often gets called a 
cool person.

I may just be very insensitive to this type of thing.  Given the characters 
I like I'm used to Cotton Mather-like attacks from the Pulpit calling them 
every name in the book and calling for their punishment and death.  You 
learn to only object to criticisms you can challenge on factual grounds, not 
subjective ones.  Manipulative?  That's practically a compliment.:-)

Betsy:
Snape himself only says that he expects Voldemort
would want him to do it in the end.  So yeah, there's a bit of guess work 
involved.  Though the fact that Bellatrix didn't dismiss Snape's statement 
is suggestive, IMO.

Magpie:
I don't have the book with me, but doesn't Snape say the thing about "him" 
wanting him to do it in the end to himself?  I remember it seemed like it 
was written as if Snape was sort of saying it dreamily, thoughtfully, or 
something.  To me it seemed like a way of showing this was a true statement 
Snape was really making to himself--though whether "he" was Voldemort or 
Dumbledore was in question.

-m