LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 149598


Neri:
So I ask you
> again – doesn't this imply Snape owed a Life Debt to James? And what
> part did this Debt play in Snape coming over to "our" side?

In terms of, is Snape magically compelled to save James or Harry?  I
really don't think so.  I think it may have played a part as a debt of
honour.  It would be cool if there was some.. what's a good term,
'situational magic'?  like the DADA curse seems to involve.  But from
the basic root of this life debt theory:

"Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr.
Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive."

"What?"

"He saved his life."

"What?"

"Yes..." said Dumbledore dreamily. "Funny, the way people's minds
work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's
debt....

I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he
felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go back
to hating your father's memory in peace...." 


Why would Dumbledore be talking about how it's funny how people's
minds work?  If the debt works as you say it does, it wouldn't be
funny at all, in the sense of strange or illogical.  This doesn't
sound at all to me like Dumbledore's talking about a straight-out
compulsion like the House-Elf enslavement. I mean, would he say, "Yes,
Dobby served Lucius Malfoy all year because he felt it was required by
this spell.  Funny how people's minds work"?  If you found out about
the elf enchantment and then re-read D-dore saying something like
that, you'd be, 'what?  That doesn't even make sense'. 

Further, I think it's fairly clear in the text that Dumbledore is only
SURMISING the reason that Snape changed sides;  and that this is a
different thing from whatever it is that makes Dumbledore so certain
that he DID change sides.  He's "certain" that Snape is on their side.
But he only says, of finding out who V-mort's targets were, "I believe
it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason he turned--".
It's a subtle difference and it's easy to see why Harry misquotes
Dumbledore at the end of HBP.  But in the context we're talking about
it's a vital difference.  If Dumbledore only 'believes' the targeting
of James was the cause of Snape's turning, but he's 'certain' that he
DID turn, then they can't be the same thing.  Like saying, "I believe
that Carravagio is genuine.  I'm certain that Rembrandt is genuine." 
If you say those two phrases right after the other, like D-dore does
about Snape reasons and Snape's turning, you can see that the frame of
mind and the standard of evidence is subtly, but importantly
distinguished.  He also says he 'believes' the debt Snape 'felt' he
owed to James was why he was working so hard to protect Harry in PS.  

 
> > that "he's now no more a Death Eater than I am".  
> 
> Neri:
> Even if Dumbledore had testified under oath (which we don't know for a
> fact) I doubt that this particular statement was part of his
> testimony. We know that Snape has an active dark mark, so either
> Dumbledore means here that he (Dumbledore) also has an active dark
> mark, or we must conclude that Dumbledore words (warning: big surprise
> coming) should be taken with a grain of salt.

Why would Dumbledore be lying here?  I don't get this part at all. 
Why would Dumbledore be spreading around to all and sundry, including
people whose lives depend on Snape independently of this LD, that he
trusts Snape completely and he's totally no longer a Death Eater, when
he doesn't actually think so?  Why wouldn't he give one sort of
assurance for Harry-related stuff, and a much more cautious reading
for everything else?  Why give these huge blanket statements when he
completely doesn't mean them?

I think my post just above yours appeared before you had time to
address it, so I'll just reiterate this bit:

"Would this LD theory now presume that, if asked by any Order member in
a general sense, post-GoF Dumbledore would say: "I trust Peter
Pettigrew completely"?  That he "wouldn't hear a word against
Pettigrew"?  Because that's what this theory implies."

> 
> > Sydney:
> And Harry asks him
> > in HBP, "How can you be sure Snape's on OUR side?", and D-dore says,
> > "I'm sure.  I trust Severus Snape completely".  He's saying, he's on
> > OUR side.  Meaning, yours and mine.  Our.  Side.
> 
> Neri:
> "*Your* side, because he has to save your life. *My* side, because he
> has to save *your* life". Dumbledore wouldn't consider his own life as
> part of the deal. It's Harry that matters.

Sophist!Dumbledore is a bit of a joker, isn't he?  I don't get why
he'd be jerking Harry around like this.  Or anybody else for that
matter.   Surely Harry is also concerned for people like Ginny or Ron
or anybody else when he refers to 'our side'?  What if Snape suddenly
had reason to kill Ginny, as a DE well might?  Why would Dumbledore
being doing everything he can to encourage Harry to trust not just his
own life, but other people's, to this guy when he's only relying on
him because of a narrow bond to one person?


> Neri:
> I remind you we're talking about the person who said "I trust Severus
> Snape, but I forgot
 that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I
> thought professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father
> -  I was wrong."
> 
> Evidently, Dumbledore saying he trusts Snape doesn't necessarily mean
> there isn't a but somewhere in there. A but that in certain
> circumstances might turn out to be a pretty big BUT.

BUT... this isn't Dumbledore saying, I trusted Snape and I was wrong.
He says, I trust Snape, but this particular task he was too
handicapped to do.  It's Dumbledore saying, I thought Hagrid could
squeeze through that tiny hole, but it turns out he was just too big.
 That's not an "I don't trust Hagrid" moment, that's an "Hagrid turned
out to be unequipped for this thing I asked him to do".  
> 
> 
> > Sydney: 
> > I still find Dumbledore's "Severus... please..." simply to not
> > fit in with this theory.  You say, he's asking Snape not to forget the
> > Life Debt.  But why would D-dore need to PLEAD for Snape not to forget
> > some sort of deadly magical compulsion that's been driving him for
> > over a decade? 
> 
> Neri:
> Because whatever the moral/magical mechanism of the Life Debt will
> turn out to be, for Dumbledore the moral meaning would always take
> first place. Dumbledore wants Snape to save Harry because it's the
> right thing to do, not because Snape is magically forced to.
> 
> The Dumbledore of LID doesn't plead with Snape to pay the Debt for the
> sake of the plan (which would probably work anyhow) but for the sake
> of Snape's soul.  

I'm with Juli-- and people say DDM!theories are convoluted! 
Dumbledore only trusts Snape because of the LD, except when he trusts
Snape generally because he wants him to be a good person; he's
pleading with Snape to save Harry, knowing that he'd have to save
Harry anyways, but Dumbledore means, don't save him because you'd die
or come out in spots if you didn't but because it's right-- but hang
on, is D-dore for or against Snape AK-ing him at this point, because
how can Snape save Harry at all if he'd die from the Vow?  But
Dumbledore doesn't want Snape to tarnish his soul by killing him so
he's begging Snape NOT to kill Dumbledore.  Which doesn't have
anything to do with the Life Debt and would leave Harry vulnerable to
the 3 DE's plus Draco on the tower.  So maybe he IS begging about
Harry.  Can I borrow some of Juli's Tylenol?


> > Sydney:
> > Why would D-dore be so upset when he was telling
> > Harry that he couldn't imagine the remorse Snape felt when he found
> > out the targets?  Seeing as by the LD theory Dumbledore's being kind
> > of cute here, wouldn't he be calm or even downright twinkly?
> 
> Neri:
> No. This is a matter of Snape's soul. Dunbledore would hardly been
> twinkly. Being upset here further suggests that Dumbledore wasn't so
> sure what would be Snape's choice after all.

*flails arms about*  You mean, Dumbledore's upset because Snape might
have chosen NOT to honour the Life Debt?  But I thought the entire
point of this theory was that Snape HAD to honour the Life Debt, thus
meaning that Snape never actually made a choice at all?  And
Dumbledore's distressed because of what opinion Harry is forming of
Snape.  He's not remembering a past angst about Snape turning for good
reasons or bad reasons.  He sees Harry hating Snape and thinking he's
this awful person and D-dore's saying "You don't understand how
terrible he felt!  It was the worst moment of his whole life!  Please
don't hate him like this!"  Perhaps you think this is consistent with
him saying "Harry, if you only understood how remorseful Snape was
when he found out Snape himself could be hurt by turning in your
parents!  It was terrible for him!"  I don't.


>It's the thought about killing Harry like he
> he was responsible for the killing of James that makes Snape haul in
> pain. Smells like a one piece of strong Magic to me. Probably much
> stronger than that dark mark scar that was givind Snape pains in GoF. 

I knew the "Snape doesn't have real feelings, just magically-induced
ones" arguement was going to come up. <g>
> 
> > Sydney:
> Or the bit where Snape's face is
> > suffused with hatred and revulsion, gee, JUST like Harry's was when he
> > was force-feeding D-dore the poison?  
> 
> Neri:
> Er... where exactly is it written that Harry felt hatred towards
> Dumbledore in the cave?

It says, "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced
the goblet back to Dumbledore's mouth".  Snape face is described as 
"having revulsion and hatred etched on the harsh lines of his face".
If a third party was looking at Harry at that moment, he would have
seen some crazy kid with a face full of hatred and revulsion
force-feeding a helpless old man poison. 


> > Hating Harry and
> > James is totally Snape's defense mechanism.
> 
> Neri:
> It's a defense mechanism that has never made much sense to me if Snape
> is DDM. A person has such a strong remorse about his part in making
> some boy an orphan, and he doesn't miss an opportunity to show his
> hatred to this orphan and to his dead father? 

LOL, everytime someone is genuinely mystified by this, I wonder if
either they lead blameless lives, or maybe I just need therapy! 
Snape's treatment of Harry just screams 'guilt' to me.  I utterly and
completely recongnize it.  Personally, I'm never as furious and
illogical and unfair as I am when I'm trying to conceal that I'm
guilty about something.  I'm not saying Snape isn't one sick puppy,
but I really do recognize his sickness as one of guilt.  But if you've
never felt like that, well-- I'm jealous!  <g>


> >  He has to have the Occlumency shields at full power for the
> > foreseeable future.  It cracks for a second-- dog on fire-- and he
> > refocuses by concentrating on the James/Harry hatred.
> > 
> 
> Neri:
> Ah, I knew the "Snape is acting" argument is going to come up soon.

He's not acting.  He really DOES hate James.  His feelings towards
Harry seem more complicated but I'm sure he could be described as
hating him.  I'm saying, Snape has Death Eaters and Draco watching him
and he's on his way to see Voldemort.  He's upset (heck, he's probably
on the verge of a nervous breakdown), but there's just no way for him
to crack up and start crying about Dumbledore here.  If you put a
*total randomness* mandrake in a pot in front of him he'd probably
start screaming about how much he hated $%*@*% mandrakes and their
*@#$ baby faces.  You put Harry in front of him and that's even
better, now he can start kicking James' memory instead.  Haven't you
ever kicked your car when you've had a bad day, because you can't kick
your boss?  And Snape can't even THINK about kicking his boss. 

In conclusion... I think this is actually a groovy theory-- really! 
It reminds me a bit of my favorite tragically unfullfilled theories,
MemoryCharm!Neville and Imperio!Arthur Weasley.  It's clever and fun
and has a nice twist.  But I just think, as a theory, it's forcing the
facts to bend out of shape to suit it, rather than falling into place
in a fore-head slapping way.  Dumbledore in particular is doing some
pretty scary yoga to fit all these positions.  

-- Sydney, saying goodnight!