Meanwhile, back at the ranch...(High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 149655

Carol responds:
> I don't quite agree. Snape spends the first half of the chapter
> doing exactly what you say he doesn't need to do--proving himself
> to Bella. You're right that she is no longer in the Dark Lord's 
> confidence (a fact he takes pains to ascertain before answering
> her questions), but he makes his reason quite clear: The Death
> Eaters are talking about him behind his back, spreading rumors
> that he's really Dumbledore's Man (as Bella also believes), and he
> wants those rumors to stop <snip canon>

Jen: Spinner's End is like a rubik's cube puzzle to me, I get one 
side all the same color only to turn it and see another side is 
messed up. Your interpretation of Snape and Bella was my 
interpretation my first read-through, it makes narrative sense and 
is followed later by the scene on the tower where the DE's seem to 
be looking to Snape for directions.

Turn the rubic's cube: So Snape took great pains to tell Bella his 
story and for her to watch the UV. Bella then goes around to the 
DE's to extol the virtues of Snape far and wide and soon word gets 
back to.....Voldemort. 

Voldemort had to know about the UV and as far as we know, there was 
no punishment for talking about the secret plan that no one should 
have been talking about. It just seems fishy to me his minions are 
cutting deals supposedly behind his back and there are no 
repercussions. That tells me he *liked* the idea of the UV, or imo, 
he was behind it in some way to begin with. I know we don't agree on 
that Carol, it's just Voldemort has been behind every plan in the 
series. Things don't add up for this plan for me unless his finger 
is in the pie somewhere. He doesn't simply give orders and let 
things unfold, he's a micro-manager. Having a UV taken without his 
orders, one soon to be well-known in the circle of DE's, is 
suspicious to me. 

Carol:
> I don't agree that Narcissa had a plan when she sought his help,
> certainly not to trap him into an Unbreakable Vow, since she
> clearly didn't want Bellatrix following her and interfering. Nor
> do I think that Narcissa knew the whole plan involving the
> Vanishing Cabinet or Snape could have seen it in her mind using 
> Legilimency. 

Jen: I don't think Narcissa knew about the Vanishing cabinents, or 
that she would be killed if Draco failed (heck, I don't think Draco 
knew about that last part until he started failing and Voldemort 
upped the ante). Still, Narcissa talked to Bellatrix about what to 
do. She told Bella she was going to Snape's and the two argued 
before arriving at Spinner's End: "I've listened already. I've made 
my decision. Leave me alone." Bella did not know where Snape lived 
and yet she was able to follow Narcissa, something MOM officials 
seem unable to do when the DE's apparated from the camground in 
GOF.  Again, I find parts of it suspcious even though your reading 
is all there in black and white.

> Jen wrote:
> So the next question is....Why [did Snape agree to the third
> provision of the UV]? <snip> Snape seems to have attached himself
> to the two most powerful wizards in the world for most of his
> adult life. Some people see that as firm canon for OFH, while I 
> see another version of the oft-played theme of father figures. As
> a teen and young man, he believed Voldemort would deliver
> salvation. When none came, and in fact Snape only found more 
> emotional pain from Voldemort's actions, Snape returned to
> Dumbledore.

Carol responds:
> Well, maybe not salvation but certainly the recognition for his
> intelligence and talents that he wanted and didn't receive from 
> DD. <snip> There is evidence throughout the books of his feeling 
> like a son striving for the approval of a father who favors
> another brother or brothers <snip> So, yes, I think one reason he
> went to Voldemort was the hope that LV would recognize and reward
> his talents,the old "honor him above all others" lie we hear so
> often. And when he found out what service to LV really entailed,
> he *returned* (DD's own word, used in GoF and again in HBP to his
> original father figure, the great wizard whose trust and respect 
> and perhaps affection he craved.

Jen: OK, that works. I like the drama of salvation because most of 
what Snape does seems a little over the top, but your scenario gets 
to the heart of the matter. I'm in total agreement Snape felt 
Dumbledore failed him after the Prank and he went seeking *whatever* 
it is he sought from Voldemort. Voldemort specifically, I should 
say, not being a DE or Muggle torture or the rest. He likely engaged 
in some heinous activities and cut off his compassion since that's 
the route JKR mentioned Draco was headed toward in HBP. Was that the 
reason Snape became a DE? I doubt it.

> Carol responds:
> Now this is an interesting perspective. Snape knew that DD had been
> injured by a curse (I think he must have deduced that the cursed
> object was a Horcrux, but that's beside the point), but he knew
> that DD had sent Fudge and company packing and defeated Voldemort
> in the MoM. He could not possibly have anticipated a weak (dying?)
> and wandless Dumbledore on the tower, and he seems (later) to have
> trusted to the protections that DD placed on Hogwarts (and to 
> Draco's incompetence). It's possible that he felt a dim hope that
> Dumbledore, his father figure, would rescue him. I think, though,
> that the sinister imagery at the end of the chapter suggests 
> otherwise. 

Jen: You mean the sinister imagery of the Vow? I think that makes 
for a dramatic moment for Snape to "chose to risk dooming himself, 
to lose either his life or his soul, to save Draco and maintain his 
cover as a DE" as you said later on. But I like the idea better that 
the dramatic choice for Snape came on the tower. The once abstract 
third clause became a harsh reality and Dumbledore couldn't make his 
decision for him. Up to that point, Dumbledore was directing the 
action; On the tower, Snape was alone.

Carol responds:
> This I agree with, but I also think that Snape felt that following
> and talking to Draco was futile (the brat wasn't listening to him
> or confiding in him) and DD told him to keep doing it. And had
> Snape not followed that order, keeping an eye on Draco (or 
> Harry?), Draco would have died from Harry's Sectum Sempra curse 
> (and Snape, having failed to protect Draco, would have died as
> well). 

Jen: Your thoughts reminded me how carefully JKr wrote this story: 
Did Snape save Draco because of the Vow or because it was the right 
thing to do? Did he save Dumbledore from the ring curse because he 
knew Voldemort wanted Draco (and Snape) to kill him or because he 
wanted to save DD? I'm suddenly struck by how either path could be 
justified by canon.

Jen wrote:
> I think that interview in TIME when JKR talked about father figures
> and evil flourishing where fathers are bad or absent is fertile
> ground for growing Snape's motivations. It's certainly connected
> to a major theme and would place Snape in the already crowded room
> of abandoned sons, but as the only one who found an acceptable
> father substitute on the Right side.
 
> Carol responds:
> Or rather, the only one besides Harry who did so. The parallels
> between Snape and Harry are mounting. I really like the parallel
> between him and Lily, too--a father figure placing himself at risk 
> to save the "son" that Narcissa should have sacrificed herself to
> save if the pattern of the dying mother (Lily, Mrs. Crouch) had 
> continued. 

Jen: You know, the UV is an odd perversion of Lily's or Mrs. 
Crouch's sacrifice. Instead of possibly freely sacrificing himself 
for Draco without the Vow, Snape instead forced a situation where he 
must choose who will be sacrificed. 

Carol:
> And the pattern resumes with DD dying to save *three* sons--Harry,
> Draco,and his beloved black sheep, Severus Snape, who still has an
> important role to play. 

Jen: Dumbledore's death seems more along the lines of Lily's death 
to me, dying to protect others and perhaps confer some benefit we 
don't know about yet. 

Carol:
> He's doomed and anguished, but Harry, in many ways his foil as 
> well as his antagonist, will have to accept his help before the
> end. (I hope.)


Jen: I think it will be Harry's mercy that matters in the end <g>.