LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 149736

> Betsy Hp:
> I pretty much agree with everything Syndey said in her reply, but I 
> wanted to point out a logistical problem I see here.  Snape joined 
> the Order, joined Dumbledore's side *before* James was killed by 
> Voldemort.  And Dumbledore says he trusted Snape before the Potters 
> were killed.  So how does LID, which wouldn't have come into play 
> yet, explain this?

Neri
I'm not sure I understand your question. First, when does Dumbledore
say he trusted Snape before the Potters were killed?

But assuming he did, the question is how the Life Debt works exactly.
It is actually quite possible that a deep magic like that doesn't have
defined rules, in the same way that Lily's Ancient Magic doesn't seem
to have very defined rules. It just works when the Author needs it to.
The thematic content is more important than the exact details. So
maybe the same way Dumbledore trusts that Wormtail's Debt would save
Harry in the end, he trusts that Snape's Debt would also do that.

If OTOH we assume that the Life Debt magic is really more similar the
UV. Say, it kills you if you kill the one you owe to, or I you take a
part in killing him. And (in order to account for Snape's strange
behavior  in "The Flight of the Prince") lets say that the Debt is
kind enough to give you a painful warning or a reminder if you are
*about* to kill or hurt that person. So by informing Voldemort about
the prophecy, Snape made himself a part of Voldemort's scheme to kill
the Potters. He realized that he would die if Voldy kills James. Snape
has no way to convince Voldy to give this up, so he ran to Dumbledore
and told him about it.

Both Dumbledore and Snape would realize that this effectively places
Snape in Dumbledore's side. Snape can only stay alive if Dumbledore
and the Order manage to win the war and guard James, so Snape would be
a fool to harm anybody in the Order. And if the Order wins and
Voldemort loses, Snape would need Dumbledore to save him from Azkaban.
In such a situation Dumbledore has a very good reason to trust that
Snape is on his side.


>  Betsy Hp:
> Remember, by reporting the Prophecy Snape put *Harry* in mortal 
> danger, not James and Lily.  

Neri:
Er... what? Do you think Snape believed for one moment that Voldy
would leave James and Lily alive?


> Betsy Hp:
> Okay, this is another hole, I think.  So the mere reminder of an 
> unfilled life debt is enough to trigger magical pain, if I'm 
> following you correctly.  Then how was it that Peter was able to 
> stoically take allowing Harry, to whom he owes a direct life debt, 
> to get into such mortal danger in GoF?  Shouldn't he have been given 
> a massive magical shock?  What about when he deliberatly caused 
> Harry pain?
> 
> For that matter, why is Peter able to work with Voldemort, who is 
> actively seeking Harry's death, while Snape is somehow "trapped" to 
> Dumbledore's side? 
> 

Neri:
I suspect that Snape has a more severe form of the Life Debt than
Peter has, because after all, James *was* killed by Voldemort as a
result of Snape's action. So strictly speaking, (assuming now the
UV-like sub-theory of the Life Debt magic) Snape *should* have died
when James did. My hunch is that Dumbledore had to do some very
difficult magic there in order to save Snape's life. I even
hypothesized that this is what Dumbledore was occupied with during the
24 Hours after GH. My best guess is that Dumbledore saved Snape by
performing a magical transaction that transferred Snape's Debt from
James to Harry. And if I'm right about this, then Snape ended up
having a Life Debt to Dumbledore too, for saving his life from the
first Debt, which would give Dumbledore even more reason to trust him.

Whether this sub-theory is true or not, Snape *is* now on his "second
chance" from the Life Debt magic, after he had already failed to pay
the first time, so it makes sense to me that his Debt is much more
severe than that of Peter. 


> Betsy Hp:
> Why?  I don't understand why you think Dumbledore would waste so 
> much time and effort on a man who for almost two decades is only 
> serving Dumbledore's interests because he's been magically trapped 
> into doing so.  Why does Snape's soul rate more than Peter's?
> 

Neri:
Apparently Snape told Dumbledore that he felt great remorse. And if
this pain that Snape was screaming with during The Flight was a small
sample, then I shudder to think what he was suffering when James
actually died. I'd imagine it wouldn't be at all difficult for him to
feel remorse while suffering so badly. Like Dumbledore said to Harry,
"you have no idea".

So Dumbledore would naturally want to give Snape a second chance, same
as he gave Draco and Kreacher. Probably he was aware that Snape's
remorse wasn't that durable, but Dumbledore was a great believer in
second chances, and he'd also believe that such deep magic must play
its part in the end.   

> Olivier:
> What else do we read? That he has tried to save Harry's life on at  
> least one unambiguous occasion (and arguably in several others), that  
> he has had Dumbledore entirely at his mercy and that he not only did  
> not kill him but also saved his life.

Neri:
Snape saving Dumbledore's life fits very well with my Double Life-Debt
theory: LID!Snape should have died when James died, but Dumbledore
saved him somehow (as I speculate, by transferring his Debt from James
to Harry) and thus Snape ended up InDebted to Dumbledore too. But
after Snape saved Dumbledore's life and repaid this Debt he was again
free to kill Dumbledore. And indeed, just several days after Snape
saved Dumbledore's life he took a UV. 

> Olivier:
> OK. Now I must confess. Where do you guys find room to argue?  
> Whatever your theory, be it DDM! OFH! LID! ESE! Vampire! CLV! (the  
> last one is Candy Loving Vegetarian Snape, I too sometimes want to  
> have my own theory) what exactly do you find mysterious? Take the  
> tower moment. If he is ESE! or OFH! of course he kills DD. And if he  
> is DDM!? Well he has to kill DD or drop dead and have Dumbledore die  
> anyway because someone will finish off.

Neri:
You are forgetting again the UV. The question isn't really why Snape
killed Dumbledore on the tower. As you say, he had to do that to stay
alive. So the real question here is what possessed him in Spinner's
End to take the third part of the UV. Admittedly either DDM, ESE, OFH
or LID don't explain it. However, DDM still has a much harder time
with it, because a Snape who is loyal to Dumbledore and takes a Vow to
kill him is, er... shall we say mysterious?

Neri