LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 149770

> Olivier:
> Hum, I believe Snape did not know what he was swearing to do. We have 
> no evidence from Spinner's End that he did and we have evidence that 
> he tried to obtain informations from Draco, which suggests that he 
> didn't know exactly what was going on around Christmas. He probably 
> knew in March though, since he has this little disagreement with 
> Dumbledore. Can DDM explain Snape vowing to do some unspecified 
> mission for Voldemort? Well yes. DDM! advocates will readily tell you 
> that Snape fully intended to die for the cause so he had no problem 
> taking the vow. You have to admit that it gave him a pretty credible 
> cover. Besides, if he can be sure that Draco is making progress while 
> not endangering Dumbledore too much, it's perfectly okay. That said, 
> if Snape is DDM and if he didn't know what was Draco's mission, he 
> made a very foolish decision to lie to Bellatrix and Narcissa. That 
> set in motion dire events. Not the first time that DDM!Snape was not 
> too effective by the way, the way he handled Occlumency was 
> incredible. He knew perfectly well that Dumbledore's "shrewd 
> idea" (which turned out to be very effective) could work only if 
> Harry learnt Occlumency and yet he allowed that to stop!
>

Neri:
You pretty much nail the problems I have with this version of DDM.
Lying to Bella about anything Voldemort knows would be a very stupid
thing to do. If Bella or Wormtail report this conversation, Snape
would be summoned to the Dark Lord to explain how come he pretends to
know about plans he wasn't told about.

But mostly for me it's just that I can't buy such unbelievable
incompetence in Snape. After all, secret agent Snape already had a
pretty poor track record even before HBP. Not only the way he handled
the Occlumency lessons, but also how he failed to prevent Harry from
going to the DoM when he was the last Order member at Hogwarts. And
when did secret agent Snape ever save the day with inside information
from Voldemort's camp? So in HBP secret agent Snape attempts to save
Draco and uncover Voldy's plan, and he ends up killing Dumbledore
himself. And on the top of that he doesn't even manage to save Draco
from Voldemort. I simply can't buy such incompetence. It would make
the whole spying career of DDM!Snape look like one big joke. Even if
he finally manage to save the day in Book 7 it would probably come out
like "sure, if you didn't make such a huge mess of things in the first
place, there wouldn't be a need to save the day now". Personally I
have no principle problem with DDM!Snape if it makes sense plotwise
and character-wise, but Snape as a pathetic DDM? Doesn't work for me.
I'd rather have him as a competent and complex villain.
 
> Olivier:
> Anyway, I, for one, never believed in AllGoodDDM!Snape. Snape is not 
> a nice guy.

Neri:
Oh, I believe this would place you right in the mainstream of
DDM!Snapers <g>. In fact, "not nice" seems to be one of his big
selling points.

> Olivier:
> That is canon, not theory. In JKR's opinion, he is "in 
> some ways more culpable even than Voldemort".
>

Neri:
You know, somehow this one sounds to me significantly worse than just
"not nice".

> Olivier:
> By the way, I would like to point that when Dumbledore is dying on 
> the top of the tower, he instructs Harry to "go and wake Severus" and 
> to "tell him what has happened". This is quite remarkable because it 
> suggests that Snape knows about the Horcruxes seek and destroy mission.
>

Neri:
Hmm, the thing is that this direction of Dumbledore clashes with his
previous direction not to tell anybody except Ron and Hermione about
the Hxs. And Harry takes this previous direction very seriously. He
even refuses to tell McGonagall after Dumbledore is already dead, and
he had never had any doubts about *her* loyalty.

 I think that by "tell him what happened" Dumbledore meant something
more like "Professor Dumbledore drank Voldemort's potion and is
gravely ill", which would be the relevant information at that moment,
and not "we were searching after one of Voldemort's six Horcruxes in a
cave by the sea."


> Jen: This adds a layer the story doesn't need, though, and is
> surprisingly convoluted for Faith <g>. In HBP we're meant to be left
> wondering whether Snape saved Dumbledore from the ring curse because
> he's loyal and is doing the right thing or because he's keeping him
> alive so Voldemort can exact his revenge on the Malfoy's (and Snape)
> in the end. And if you tell me that doesn't make sense I'll have to
> refer you you back to Voldemort to answer that one, He Who Overlooks
> The Flaws In All His Plans.
>

Neri:
I'm not sure I follow you. Suppose we were indeed meant to wonder
between two possibilities (BTW, I'm not saying the second doesn't make
sense but I didn't think about it when I read the book). How does this
preclude that in the end there will be a third one? I don't think this
is convoluted, especially if this third possibility turns out less
convoluted than the first two.

> Jen:
> Another thing, Dumbledore seems to honor ancient magic in a way he
> doesn't honor human laws. Meddling with the life-debt seems counter
> to his actions so far, like believing Harry must compete in the
> Triwizard Tournament. Not sure that was ancient magic per se, but as
> a 'binding magical contract' Dumbledore still didn't interfere even
> though very wary of the outcome.
>

Neri:
Well, Dumbledore *did* meddle with Lily's Ancient Magic, or at least
he made use of it in order to enact Petunia's pact. Now that I think
about it, this seems to have some interesting parallels with LID!Snape.

So why didn't he meddle with the TWT contract? I don't know. Probably
because the plot didn't need it  <g>.

> Jen:
> But hey, I'm completely biased. My gut feeling is the life-debt was
> a done deal in PS

Neri:
Nah, that would be an anticlimax. First, if the life debt was still
active by SS/PS then it was active when Snape heard the prophecy and
when he changed sides, so this must have been at least a part of his
motivation. So do we have JKR finishing with his Debt in SS/PS and
*then* writing so much conflict and emotion into the
Snape/James/Prophecy story? No, no, she's a much better storyteller
than that. The culmination of the Debt plot must arrive in Book 7.
 
> Jen:
: 1) Snape didn't kill James himself and didn't
> know the prophecy would be interpreted to mean James when he
> delivered it to LV;

Neri:
But this would be a major thematic moral. Snape working for the evil
overlord, thinking he doesn't care about the consequences of the
information he brings him, and suddenly discovering that it affects
him personally.

 
> Jen:
 2) when James died the debt ended;

Neri:
That would make the whole Life Debt magic meaningless. If you owed a
Debt to somebody you don't like, you could get rid of it simply by
arranging his death, or by doing nothing when you know another person
is going to kill him.

As we have recently learned, JKR built the Fidelius so that it doesn't
break if the secret keeper dies, because she understood that this
would make the Fidelius meaningless. You could simply kill the secret
keeper and the secret would be revealed. Surely she'd understand the
equivalent situation about the Life Debt magic?

> Jen:
and 3) Snape
> himself prolonged the agony of feeling indebted because that's what
> he *does*. If life-debts work another way Peter should have been
> incapacitated in his ability to actively help Voldemort kill Harry.
>

Neri:
Well, I guess I'll just have to conclude that the pain symptoms only
start with the death of the first person you owe to <g>.

I also remind you that Peter did risk a lot trying to convince Voldy
to use another wizard for the resurrection.

> Jen: 
> Technically Snape agreed to the clause: "And if it should prove
> necessary...if it seems Draco will fail....will you carry out the
> deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
>
> There's a lot of space around the taking of that Vow and the clause
> itself for JKR to fill in, and we've seen what she can do with a
> vacuum.
>

Neri:
Maybe, but in the meantime it looks like this is precisely what
happened on the tower. Draco failed in killing Dumbledore and Snape
killed him instead. So if Snape was trying to fool the third term
somehow it seems he failed. See above for my problems with Snape's
incompetence.


Neri