LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 149772

Oh good, I was on my way to think up questions for the next chapter 
discussion and found a Neri post to sink my brain into <g>.

Neri to Olivier:
> You pretty much nail the problems I have with this version of DDM.
> Lying to Bella about anything Voldemort knows would be a very
> stupid thing to do. If Bella or Wormtail report this conversation,
> Snape would be summoned to the Dark Lord to explain how come he
> pretends to know about plans he wasn't told about.

Jen: Unless Voldemort already knows about the UV or finds it to be 
to his advantage when word gets back to him. The only way I can make 
Spinner's End work is to have Voldemort plugged into the equation 
somewhere, no matter what flavor of Snape you prefer.

Neri:
> But mostly for me it's just that I can't buy such unbelievable
> incompetence in Snape. After all, secret agent Snape already had a
> pretty poor track record even before HBP. Not only the way he
> handled the Occlumency lessons, but also how he failed to prevent
> Harry from going to the DoM when he was the last Order member at
> Hogwarts. And when did secret agent Snape ever save the day with
> inside information from Voldemort's camp? So in HBP secret agent
> Snape attempts to save Draco and uncover Voldy's plan, and he ends 
> up killing Dumbledore himself. And on the top of that he doesn't 
> even manage to save Draco from Voldemort. I simply can't buy such
> incompetence. It would make the whole spying career of DDM!Snape
> look like one big joke. 

Jen: But geez, look at his career for the *other* side, it's pretty 
sad as well: Stopped Voldy from taking the Stone, interfered with 
Quirrell's attempts to kill Harry, notified the Order (almost too 
late if you prefer) of Harry & Co. going to the DOM, enables 
Voldemort to underestimate Harry by feeding him the "getting by on 
luck and more talented friends" line, doesn't tell Voldemort of 
Dumbledore's very unusual injury but instead blames his slowed 
reactions on the fight with Voldemort. *Then*, Snape caps off his 
illustrious career by undermining the Dark Lord's big revenge plan 
when he takes an *Unbreakable* Vow behind the Dark Lord's back just 
because a pretty woman shed a few tears on his chest. Pathetic. 

So, I deal with it by putting the Voldemort puzzle piece into place 
and things look a little brighter, don't they? Even Dumbledore was 
bested by Voldemort in the end, there's no shame in Snape being 
twisted into a pretzel and made to suffer by the Greatest Dark Lord 
ever.  The mouse in the trap, the fly in the web--Voldemort found 
Snape's weakness once again as he did the first time Snape foolishly 
wore his heart on his sleeve, manipulating him into the position of 
killing the Only One Who Ever Believed In Him.

It's just so vintage Voldemort I don't get why people don't buy this 
one. Would someone argue with me so I can understand the objections 
to Voldemort being behind this plot? Most people seem to want Snape 
to be the hero or villain here and he's just NOT. 

Neri:
> Even if he finally manage to save the day in Book 7 it would 
> probably come out like "sure, if you didn't make such a huge mess
> of things in the first place, there wouldn't be a need to save the
> day now". Personally I have no principle problem with DDM!Snape if
> it makes sense plotwise and character-wise, but Snape as a 
> pathetic DDM? Doesn't work for me. I'd rather have him as a 
> competent and complex villain.

Jen: I understand your position better with this information. 
Personally, I don't see Snape saving the day no matter what else 
happens. He will likely help Harry along the way, yes, and Harry 
will find out more about him when he learns of the Prank or other 
backstory. Maybe Lily will somehow shed a little light on the 
subject? I can see Harry learning some truths about him, but as for 
his moment in the sun....I think his zenith dramatic moment from 
JKR's perspective, along the lines of outing Pettigrew as the 
Maruader spy, sending Sirius through the Veil or Dumbledore changing 
dramatically in the cave, was Snape's moment on the tower. She's 
notorious for giving the adults one last Moment and then shuffling 
them into the background. I can't see Snape having a different fate, 
just a later one.

Jen previous:
> > In HBP we're meant to be left wondering whether Snape saved 
> > Dumbledore from the ring curse because he's loyal and is doing
> > the right thing or because he's keeping him alive so Voldemort
> > can exact his revenge on the Malfoy's (and Snape) in the end. 
 
> Neri:
> I'm not sure I follow you. Suppose we were indeed meant to wonder
> between two possibilities (BTW, I'm not saying the second doesn't
> make sense but I didn't think about it when I read the book). How 
> does this preclude that in the end there will be a third one? I
> don't think this is convoluted, especially if this third 
> possibility turns out less convoluted than the first two.

Jen: Oops, didn't finish that thought. What I meant was that if 
Snape saved Dumbledore's life because of a life debt to him, we have 
absolutely no clue that's going on. We have a clue why Snape would 
save Dumbledore if he's DDM, we have the possibility he saved 
Dumbledore to divert suspicion (OFH) or to save him for the Dark 
Lord's later plan (ESE), but no life debt option. That's what I 
meant about Faith, there should be something to tip us off in the 
text.

Neri:
> Well, Dumbledore *did* meddle with Lily's Ancient Magic, or at
> least he made use of it in order to enact Petunia's pact. Now that
> I think about it, this seems to have some interesting parallels
> with LID!Snape.

Jen: He made use of Lily's sacrifice, but he didn't prevent it, 
mitigate it, undermine it, manipulate it, plan it or otherwise mess 
with the ancient magic involved. I don't he would do that and in the 
case of the life debt, I don't think he *can*. My speculation.

Jen previous:
> > 2) when James died the debt ended;

Neri:
> That would make the whole Life Debt magic meaningless. If you owed
> a Debt to somebody you don't like, you could get rid of it simply
> by arranging his death, or by doing nothing when you know another
> person is going to kill him. As we have recently learned, JKR
> built the Fidelius so that it doesn't break if the secret keeper
> dies, because she understood that this would make the Fidelius 
> meaningless. You could simply kill the secret keeper and the 
> secret would be revealed. Surely she'd understand the equivalent
> situation about the Life Debt magic?

Jen: I still think there's a difference between knowingly aiding, 
abetting or planning a person's death you are indebted to and having 
them die for other reasons. In magical terms I don't believe Snape 
telling Voldemort the prophecy about an unknown person 
was 'knowingly' attempting to kill James Potter. Whatever impartial 
powers-that-be determine these outcomes can surely tell the 
difference between Snape's actions and Wormtail's! Snape should get 
some bonus brownie points in magical terms for *not* knowing James 
was going to die as a result of his actions <g>.  OK, fine. That's 
not very persuasive but it's all I've got tonight.

Oh, I didn't think I had anything to add to the other points you 
made because my opinions on life-debts are just that, opinions. But 
you said this about Snape not realizing James would be the one to 
die: "But this would be a major thematic moral. Snape working for 
the evil overlord, thinking he doesn't care about the consequences 
of the information he brings him, and suddenly discovering that it 
affects him personally."  No, no, it's the *remorse* that fits the 
theme. Snape either felt true remorse or he lied to Dumbledore; 
otherwise the core of his story doesn't hang together. LID 
undermines the whole juicy remorse angle. 

Basically it all comes down to personal preference for me, I'll 
admit it: I want a tortured, *suffering* Snape who actually does 
care about something (destroying Voldemort) and someone (Dumbledore) 
other than himself, but he can't get past his deep flaws to be 
effective at really much of anything until that moment on the tower. 
There he finally did something right but it looked oh-so-wrong to 
everyone else on the same side except Dumbledore. LID just doesn't 
have the deep pain and drama necesary to work with my ideal. ;) 

Jen, wanting to add if her version of Snape sounds *noble* to anyone 
that's not how she sees him in her own head.