Maligning Lupin

[spotsgal]

No: HPFGUIDX 150225

> Pippin:
> You're entitled to your opinion of course, but adult Sirius and 
> Lupin do seem to be sharing secrets. They give each other a look 
> before Sirius starts telling Harry about what Voldemort is after --
> a look that appears to tell us there's something just between the 
> two of them (and no, I don't think it's a ship. Sorry.)

Christina:

I agree that Lupin and Sirius's shared look is a "how much do we tell
him?" look.  I just don't believe that it is necessary to presume any
extra information is being shared - there is a lot of information that
Order members know that Harry does not.


> Pippin:
> If Sirius was told that the purpose of the secrecy was to keep the 
> DE's from using  Harry to go after the prophecy, he would think 
> there was no need for secrecy any more. 

Christina:

But would Sirius buy that explanation?  Lupin would also have to make
sure that Sirius wouldn't blab to other members of the Order,
including Dumbledore.  I find it tough to think of a reason for Lupin
to give to Sirius to keep him from talking to DD about the prophecy -
a dangerous possibility, considering we know that Sirius and DD have
corresponded.


> > > Pippin:
> > > In any case, Dumbledore hasn't been able to do much to provide 
> > > the werewolves with education and jobs. 

> > Christina:
> > And Voldemort has done more?

> Pippin:
> Fenrir doesn't look sick or starving.

Christina:

Fenrir is a "leader of the pack" of sorts.  We know nothing about his
followers, who *steal* to eat.  And Hagrid and the House Elves are
well-fed also.  Even slaveowners feed their slaves.

I guess I just see Dumbledore's contributions as longer-lasting and
more meaningful.  Give me a loaf of bread and I'll eat for a day. 
Teach me to read and I hold that power for a lifetime.  Also, by
giving education and jobs, Dumbledore ensures that the werewolves can
feed themselves.  Even if all the werewolves were given a wonderful
buffet by Voldemort, they'd still be knowledge-less and unproductive. 


> Pippin:
> Denying someone the full range of human emotion is what the
> Uncle Tom stereotype is all about. It needn't apply just to American
> slaves, but to any group whose "good" members are made to seem
> too weak and passive to harbor anger against their oppressors.

Christina:

There really *are* people out there who are not passionate people.  It
isn't denying somebody "the full range of human emotion" to describe
that attribute in a character.  It's a character trait.  And you might
think that anger is the way to respond to prejudice, but that doesn't
mean that everybody does.  There is no "right" way to respond to a
situation like that.  You are also assuming that there is no way to
oppose prejudice without the use of anger, which is untrue.  A key
component of the Uncle Tom stereotype is an accommodation of prejudice
and a lack of desire to fight against it.  That's why I see the House
Elves as embodying that particular stereotype more readily than Lupin
- the "yes, ma'am, we love being slaves!" attitude sharply contrasts
with Lupin's work for the Order.


> > Christina:
> > Your theory also requires that Voldemort be making nice with the  
> > werewolves in the first war.  Is there evidence that this was even 
> > the case?  I've dug around a bit and haven't found anything.
 
> Pippin:
> It's only suggestive, but Hermione does assume immediately that 
> if Sirius and Lupin are working together, it's because Lupin the
> werewolf is on Sirius's, ie Voldemort's side.

Christina:

I see that as just going to show that even somebody as fair-minded as
Hermione has deeply hidden prejudices.  Does Hermione really know
anything about the last war?  I realize that she's our go-to girl for
wizarding information, but has she ever piped up before with
information from that time period?  People don't even like saying LV's
name - I can't imagine there would be many books about the subject,
seeing how little people like talking about those horrible times in
the first place.


> > Christina:
> > I understand the concept of the lesser of two evils.  But I still 
> > fail to see how *Voldemort* ends up being the lesser of two evils.  
 
> Pippin:
> I refer you to Lupin's speech in OOP where he explains why the
> goblins are going to be tempted to join Voldemort. And yet the
> goblins are materially better off than werewolves and far more
> numerous and influential.

Christina:

Which was my point earlier - the Goblins won't go over to Voldemort
for money; they want their freedom.  Fenrir Greyback may be as
well-fed as a prize pig, but that doesn't mean that Voldemort has done
a thing for werewolf freedom.

I don't doubt that Voldemort is *offering* the werewolves a certain
kind of freedom.  However, he has been very clear about the freedom he
is offering, and I don't believe that's what Lupin is looking for.  I
also don't believe he would fall for lies of any nature from
Voldemort's camp, as I've stated in the past.


> Pippin:
> He says he felt pity before he found out the identity of the 
> werewolf who bit him. He apparently assumed it wasn't Greyback, or
> somone like him, which seems a bit naive to me. 

Christina:

Lupin was just a kid when he was bitten.  It's like calling that kid
who goes off with the stranger to help "look for his puppy" naive.  It
is naive, but children have to learn more about their world before
they can overcome it.  And I'm sure Mr. Lupin wasn't too keen on his
son finding out that Fenrir bit him purposefully, and with hostility,
considering it was Mr. Lupin who offended Fenrir in the first place.


> Pippin:
> Lucius Malfoy did not know the diary was a horcrux, Voldemort did 
> not authorize the diary plot, yet JKR's answer implies that someone
> did know what the diary would do and planned to make Voldemort 
> stronger. 

Christina:

Lucius Malfoy didn't know that the diary was a Horcrux, but that
doesn't mean that he didn't know a little bit of what it could do. 
And just because Tom's escape from the diary meant that LV would be
stronger, doesn't mean that there weren't other benefits from the
diary plot as well - namely, the use of the Basilisk to rid the school
of Muggleborns, and the potentially very embarrassing situation for
Arthur.  And of course, your point falls under evidence for an ESE
plot, but not Lupin in particular.


> > Christina:
> > You seem to really like this bit as evidence for ESE!Lupin.  Why?  
> > Being evil doesn't give Lupin control over when he transforms.  No 
> > werewolf has that.

> Pippin:
> ...Fenrir's ability to position himself near potential victims also
> argues that a werewolf can predict when he will transform.
> 
> You can certainly argue that even though Lupin should have known 
> exactly when he would transform, he lost track of the time and was 
> taken by surprise, inadvertently allowing Peter to escape.
> 
> But if he did know exactly when he would transform, then he could
> also have positioned himself so that his transformation would
> *allow* Peter to escape.

Christina:

I'll buy that each werewolf is different in terms of when they
transform, but that doesn't mean that they control when it happens. 
They just know when it will be.  Or they may know approximately when
it would be.

I don't understand how this is any different than the status quo
explanation.  Whether Lupin changes at the full moon or five minutes
after the full moon or an hour after the full moon, it's still a
predictable time.  And we're back to the debate we had several months
ago, where having the means to do evil served as evidence for evildoing.

As for JKR's usual tendency to admit to a flub-up, she's also fairly
good about letting us know when we're sniffing in the right spots. 
She hasn't been shy about refusing to answer a question or telling us
there's more there (Petunia's "awful boy" comment, the possibility of
others at GH, etc).  And then there are those infamous
coke-can-tapping and Mr. Burns-laughing moments in the most recent HBP
chat.


> > > Pippin:
> > > How are Order members once again being picked off one by one?

> > Christina:
> > Spies aren't needed for Order members to die.  
 
> Pippin:
> But Lupin says it will be different this time, and yet it isn't.
> I wonder why.<g>

Christina:

Sure it is!  Look at who dies - there's Sirius, whose death does not
require a spy (it's also inferred that his death in battle was
atypical in the old days, when Order members were picked off
privately).  Dumbledore is killed, but we don't really have enough
information to really make a judgement about that one (and even if we
did, it'd be Snape's issue, not Lupin's).  Amelia Bones is killed, but
she was a politician and not part of the Order.  The only real
old-style murder of an Order member is the case of Emmeline Vance
(which, curiously enough, Snape takes credit for).  Compare that to
the mound of dead bodies from the last war.

Also, Lupin says it will be different this time because the Order is
more well-prepared.  Lupin says that the old days were unique because
they were so outnumbered, not because of the traitor in their midst. 
While I suppose Peter could have been sharing a lot of information,
he's never really accused of passing on information on anybody but the
Potters.


> > Christina:
> > In your opinion.  I think Lupin has shown ample remorse.  Lupin 
> > doesn't exist in a bubble; take out your measuring stick and look
> > at the other characters.  

> Pippin:
> Except for Hagrid's drinking, I can't think of another character
> who explicitly said or showed guilt about something and then did it
> again. Please show me some canon. There are plenty of characters who
> do things they *ought* to feel guilty about, but who else actually 
> says they know they did wrong, but they overcame their guilty 
> feelings and went right on doing it?

Christina:

You have stated that it is Lupin's ability to put aside his guilty
feelings that would enable him to do evil.  A post or two back, you
claimed that his remorse was not genuine because he repeated the
offenses that he was supposedly sorry for.  I guess I am a bit
flabbergasted because you seem to be saying that showing false remorse
is more predictive of evildoing than not showing remorse in the first
place.  Would you feel better about Lupin if he ought to show remorse
but didn't?  Would you feel better about Lupin if he came right out to
Harry and said, "Thank goodness James and Sirius taught Snape a
lesson, that ugly git"?

When I made my comment about comparing Lupin to other characters, I
was referring to the amount of remorse he shows for his ills in
comparison to other people.  You split hairs about wanting Lupin to
apologize to Harry when a great many characters have refrained from
apologizing for their wrongs (examples given in previous post, and
there are dozens more).  You focus on whether or not Lupin meant his
remorse and repeats his crimes when other characters repeat their old
crimes also.

I see those issues as relevant because you are using Lupin's remorse
(or arguable lack thereof) as predictive of evildoing.  If you think
that he is capable of evil because he has not shown "true" remorse,
than I shiver to think what you see in other characters (Sirius,
Snape, Lupin).  When trying to predict evildoers, who do you suppose
is the most likely suspect - the boy that tolerates bullying by two of
his only friends, or the two boys that are actually doing the
bullying?  Or, and I suppose this is the most telling detail, the boy
who thoroughly enjoys himself at the scene?  You spoke earlier about
Lupin turning off his conscience, but shouldn't James Potter - who
doesn't really seem to be sorry about bullying Snape at all - find
turning to evil much easier?  After all, he apparently doesn't even
have a conscience to argue with.


> Pippin
> noting that anyone who sticks to "official mysteries" --  things
> Harry explicitly wonders about -- would never decode the Mirror
> of Erised's  message

Christina:

The "official mysteries" of the books are in no way related to what
Harry wonders about.  Harry is pathetically dim a good portion of the
time.  While we quibble about Snape's true allegiance, Harry has never
wondered about Snape's loyalty.  We also wonder about Lily's "big
secret" and the Potters' professions, which don't seem to be
curiosities to Harry.

ESE!Lupin answers a couple of side questions, perhaps - but this is
the *last book*.  JKR has questions that she cannot end the series
without answering.  Side questions are just a bonus.  Also, a lot of
the appeal of ESE!Lupin is in the bang (I mean, Heck - Everybody Loves
Lupin, right?).  I don't see JKR introducing a hugely bangy device to
answer a couple of small quibbles.  The answers to the big questions
would fizzle in comparison.

Christina