Maligning Lupin

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 150238

Christina:

I agree that Lupin and Sirius's shared look is a "how much do we tell
him?" look.  I just don't believe that it is necessary to presume any
extra information is being shared - there is a lot of information that
Order members know that Harry does not.

Pippin:
Arthur and Bill are also at the table, but they're not included
in the look, which makes it seem to me that they're not included
in the information that Sirius and Lupin are agreeing not to share.
Otherwise wouldn't they need a warning glance as well? 



Pippin:
If Sirius was told that the purpose of the secrecy was to keep the
DE's from using  Harry to go after the prophecy, he would think
there was no need for secrecy any more.


Christina:

But would Sirius buy that explanation?  Lupin would also have to make
sure that Sirius wouldn't blab to other members of the Order,
including Dumbledore.  I find it tough to think of a reason for Lupin
to give to Sirius to keep him from talking to DD about the prophecy -
a dangerous possibility, considering we know that Sirius and DD have
corresponded.

Pippin:
 "Dumbledore doesn't think I should tell you this but..."


Christina:

I guess I just see Dumbledore's contributions as longer-lasting and
more meaningful.  Give me a loaf of bread and I'll eat for a day.
Teach me to read and I hold that power for a lifetime.  Also, by
giving education and jobs, Dumbledore ensures that the werewolves can
feed themselves.  Even if all the werewolves were given a wonderful
buffet by Voldemort, they'd still be knowledge-less and unproductive.

Pippin:
What good is knowing how to fish if they won't let you near the
river?

Lupin was taught to use magic, but paid work was not forthcoming. 
Why should other werewolves want to follow in his footsteps? Why
should he want them to? 

The lifetime of power he was promised was withheld. Lupin wouldn't
be the first young man to become radicalized under such conditions.



Pippin:
Denying someone the full range of human emotion is what the
Uncle Tom stereotype is all about. It needn't apply just to American
slaves, but to any group whose "good" members are made to seem
too weak and passive to harbor anger against their oppressors.


Christina:

There really *are* people out there who are not passionate people.  It
isn't denying somebody "the full range of human emotion" to describe
that attribute in a character.  It's a character trait.  And you might
think that anger is the way to respond to prejudice, but that doesn't
mean that everybody does.

Pippin:
I'm afraid your disagreement is with Jo:

"It's not possible to live with the Dursleys and not hate them,"
said Harry. "I'd like to see you try it." -- CoS ch 11


Christina:

I see that as just going to show that even somebody as fair-minded as
Hermione has deeply hidden prejudices.  Does Hermione really know
anything about the last war? 

Pippin:
She's read "Modern Magical History", "The Rise and Fall of
the Dark Arts" and "Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth
Century." (PS/SS ch 6)


Christina:
I understand the concept of the lesser of two evils.  But I still
fail to see how *Voldemort* ends up being the lesser of two evils.



Pippin:
I refer you to Lupin's speech in OOP where he explains why the
goblins are going to be tempted to join Voldemort. And yet the
goblins are materially better off than werewolves and far more
numerous and influential.


Christina:

Which was my point earlier - the Goblins won't go over to Voldemort
for money; they want their freedom.  Fenrir Greyback may be as
well-fed as a prize pig, but that doesn't mean that Voldemort has done
a thing for werewolf freedom.

I don't doubt that Voldemort is *offering* the werewolves a certain
kind of freedom.  However, he has been very clear about the freedom he
is offering,

Pippin:
You don't think the Goblins know that?  They're supposed to
be a very shrewd sophisticated bunch. Voldemort has killed their
families. And yet they are tempted. Even if
they don't believe that Voldemort would really give them
their freedom, they still may think it would be easier to control him,
or wizards led by him,  than it would be to wrest their freedom
from the ministry.

Christina:

I'll buy that each werewolf is different in terms of when they
transform, but that doesn't mean that they control when it happens.
They just know when it will be.  Or they may know approximately when
it would be.


I don't understand how this is any different than the status quo
explanation.  Whether Lupin changes at the full moon or five minutes
after the full moon or an hour after the full moon, it's still a
predictable time.  And we're back to the debate we had several months
ago, where having the means to do evil served as evidence for evildoing.


Pippin:
>From Harry's PoV, Lupin transformed because the moon appeared 
unexpectedly from behind a cloud. Yet the evidence shows that 
Lupin regularly transformed while he was in the Shrieking Shack, 
hidden from the moonlight.

Confronted with this contradiction, JKR answered shortly that the
moon wasn't up when Lupin went out to the shack, evading the
question. As you say, she's only evasive when she's got something
to hide. Why hide that Lupin can predict the time of his
transformations unless it's important to the plot?


Christina:

You have stated that it is Lupin's ability to put aside his guilty
feelings that would enable him to do evil.  A post or two back, you
claimed that his remorse was not genuine because he repeated the
offenses that he was supposedly sorry for.  I guess I am a bit
flabbergasted because you seem to be saying that showing false remorse
is more predictive of evildoing than not showing remorse in the first
place. 


Pippin:
Well, there is a rather famous plea that those who
know not what they do should be forgiven. But pleading 
for those who know, rationalize, ignore the lion's share 
of the harm they've done  and continue to do as they 
please sounds, erm,  enabling, to say the least.

Lupin shows a whole lot of remorse, but if it doesn't
change his behavior what good is it? You seem to hope
he'll do better next time, but how many next times is
he supposed to get?

Christina:
 You spoke earlier about
Lupin turning off his conscience, but shouldn't James Potter - who
doesn't really seem to be sorry about bullying Snape at all - find
turning to evil much easier?  After all, he apparently doesn't even
have a conscience to argue with.

Pippin:
 James wasn't the first or the last young 
wizard to let his powers run away with him. He was
as drunk with his power and conceit as Crouch Sr, IMO, 
and if  he had stayed on that path he might have ended 
up just like him -- as cruel and ruthless as any Death 
Eater for all his loathing of the Dark Arts. 

But he didn't. It seems he realized
where he might end up and turned away.

Lupin is different because Lupin knew at the time that 
what James and Sirius were doing was wrong. But he did little
to stop it. He made them feel guilty sometimes, but
that's not enough. If all that traffic cops could do is
make you feel guilty, there'd be a lot more speeding, no?

Christina:

ESE!Lupin answers a couple of side questions, perhaps - but this is
the *last book*.  JKR has questions that she cannot end the series
without answering.  Side questions are just a bonus.  

Pippin:
The questions that must be answered are  not necessarily 
the ones that readers ask. Most of us didn't spend 
our first read of PS/SS wondering who was trying to steal 
the Stone. We thought we knew. The only "official" mystery
about Quirrell as the book neared its end was a minor one --
we didn't know why he'd lied about the turban.

A great many readers are not trying to figure out
who killed Sirius or who betrayed Dumbledore. 
They think they know. But *if* those are mysteries,
they're certainly major ones. 

Will the next book be about how Harry
destroys the horcruxes and defeats Voldie? Nominally, yes.
But if PS/SS had been just about getting past the obstacles and
saving the Stone, few people would have read it more
than once. 


When Hagrid was explaining to Harry about Voldemort, he 
didn't say the problem was that Voldie couldn't be beaten. 
After all, he had been.

The big problem was that no one knew who to trust.

If Lupin dunnit it isn't just about the Bang.
It  goes to the heart of friendship and bravery,
and how Harry perceives his own ability to distinguish good from
evil and choose the good,  which is what the story 
is about.  I wouldn't call that a fizzle.

Pippin