Snape as infidel was Re: Kant and Snape and Ethics and Everything

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 150316

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" 
<horridporrid03 at ...> wrote:

> Betsy Hp:
> This...  It bothers me a bit.  I think part of it is the idea that 
> the Gryffindors are somehow *better* than the other houses.  That 
> they've got the best ideals.  Also, it seems to go against the 
> healing of the rift concept.  If the houses need to come together, 
> shouldn't they all be morally equal?

Not necessarily.  Gryffindor may benefit from the counterbalance of 
other houses and some of their traits, but that in no way has to 
imply moral equality.  I think it's simply a fact of the books and 
the author that she values the Gryffindor traits the most highly.  
It's a world-view built into them strongly enough that trying to go 
against it and still incorporate all of the text is very, very hard.  
You may not *like* it, but I think there's a point where you have to 
shrug and just note that it's there.

> Again, where's the healing?  It's about keeping separate that which 
> is separate which goes totally against the Sorting Hat's song.

The healing is in change.  After all, so many of our arguments right 
now really come down to finding out the factual answer to the 
question of whether Snape changed or not, or whether he's changed 
again.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> I think it also points to Draco realizing that there is another 
> path available.  That he *can* make a choice.  Something Dumbledore 
> is very big on.

Yes, but it still means that Draco has to abandon the path that he 
was on, that it was wrong.

> It's not that Draco is being offered a chance to change his method 
> and manner.  He's being offered a chance to change (or 
> finally choose) his moral code.  A much more profound choice, I 
> think.

Method and manner are essential components of many moral codes, such 
as the argument we were having with Mr. Kant, who wants you to treat 
every person as an end in and of himself, not as a means.

> I haven't gotten the sense that there's more importance in how a 
> thing is done compared to it just being done.  Do you have a scene 
> in mind that might illustrate that point?

Dumbledore's denial of Dark Magic, and McGonagall's statement that 
he's too noble to use it.  It's probably stuff that would make 
anyone's life easier in some ways--powerful magic, but something 
Dumbledore will not do.  [The strong onus against certain kinds of 
magic in various other places speaks to this; the repugnance at 
unicorn blood drinking as a wrong way to extend life, as compared to 
the (at least I think) benign Philosopher's Stone.]

There's some emphasis on manner of competition in the Triwizard 
Tournament, where Harry and Cedric agree to share rather than 
continually engaging in the sneaky (yet undeniably effective) 
oneupmanship of the cheaters.  Harry is rewarded for method in the 
underwater task, because he thought he needed to rescue everyone.  
Neville is rewarded the determinative points at the end of PS for 
doing the right thing in an honest and straightforward way, even 
though the thing he did had no actual effectiveness or results--it 
was a reward for method.  Nice contrast to the gloating of the 
Slytherins in that book, who gained their advancement from the 
Gryffindor blunders and openly congratulated the Gryffindors for it 
in the hall.  Mmmm, bad sportsmanship is rarely rewarded in this 
genre.

> Betsy Hp:
> Does he?  Where are you getting this from?  I've never gotten the 
> sense that Dumbledore was waiting for some great aha! moment from 
> Snape.

The whole "I hoped Professor Snape would be able to get over..." 
speech at the end of OotP seemed to me, at least, to be a hope not 
only for the specific actions (that Snape would come to see Harry as 
a person in and of himself and maybe even love him like Dumbledore 
obviously does), but that those actions would actually be a deep 
change in Snape's perspective on life.  So yes, I think Dumbledore 
*has* been waiting for an 'aha!' from Snape on a number of things, 
but in his Dumbledorean way, he's not going to push or force him.  I 
think he has this benign belief that Snape will eventually figure 
things out for himself about how to be a better person.  Alas.

-Nora wakes up to the sun...go away, sun...