Snape as infidel was Re: Kant and Snape and Ethics and Everything

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 150334

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > This...  It bothers me a bit.  I think part of it is the idea    
> > that the Gryffindors are somehow *better* than the other         
> > houses.  That they've got the best ideals.  Also, it seems to go 
> > against the healing of the rift concept.  If the houses need to  
> > come together, shouldn't they all be morally equal?

> >>Nora: 
> Not necessarily. Gryffindor may benefit from the counterbalance of 
> other houses and some of their traits, but that in no way has to 
> imply moral equality.

Betsy Hp:
So, you're okay with a popular childrens series classifying any 
religion that isn't Christianity as less moral?  Because *that's* 
what I was talking about in the above statement.  I'm uncomfortable 
with Gryffindor specifically standing for Christianity while the 
other Houses take on the role of infidels.  It starts down an ugly 
path, to my mind.

> >>Nora:
> I think it's simply a fact of the books and the author that she    
> values the Gryffindor traits the most highly.  

Betsy Hp:
I agree.  Which is why I don't think JKR meant for Gryffindor to 
stand for Christianity.  I think she's used the four houses to stand 
for different moral strengths that together make a strong and 
complete person, but I don't think she's divided the four houses 
into four different religions with mighty Gryffindor as the blessed 
Christians and the other three as infidels.

> >>Nora:
> It's a world-view built into them strongly enough that trying to   
> go against it and still incorporate all of the text is very, very 
> hard. You may not *like* it, but I think there's a point where you 
> have to shrug and just note that it's there.

Betsy Hp:
I do think JKR sees the Gryffindor traits of bravery and strength as 
maybe the guiding morals.  But I don't think she's dismissive of 
intelligence, cunning or hard work.  Actually, she'd be 
contradicting herself if she is.  There's a *reason* the four houses 
are invoked in the horcrux hunt.  And there's a reason Slytherin has 
been given outsider status.  I don't think it's because JKR wants to 
maintain the current Hogwarts status quo.

> >>Nora:
> The healing is in change. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Exactly!

> >>Betsy Hp: 
> > I haven't gotten the sense that there's more importance in how a 
> > thing is done compared to it just being done.  Do you have a     
> > scene in mind that might illustrate that point?

> >>Nora: 
> Dumbledore's denial of Dark Magic, and McGonagall's statement that 
> he's too noble to use it.  
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from here.  With regards to 
magic, I've found this series in particular to be incredibly weak in 
differentiating between good magic and bad.  I mean, sure, 
desecrating a grave is bad, but how is a sword cutting curse dark 
but a face branding curse not dark?  Plus, there's no evidence, that 
I've seen, that using the so-called dark arts affects the user all 
that much.  Harry didn't feel a surge of evilness from *using* the 
dark curses he used.  He felt bad about nearly killing Draco, but it 
wasn't the magic that brought it out.  He'd have felt bad if he'd 
cut Draco with the Gryffindor sword, I'd imagine.

Since I can't see a clear pattern of good magic versus bad magic my 
conclusion is that it isn't that important.  JKR will let us know if 
a curse is dark or merely effective and we'll go from there.  Which 
makes it a poor way of teaching the morals of method, which leads me 
to conclude that JKR isn't using it in that way.

> >>Nora:
> Mmmm, bad sportsmanship is rarely rewarded in this genre.

Betsy Hp:
Hee!  And see, I think the "good guys" display bad sportsmanship all 
the time.  The twins *always* fight with the odds on their side.  
The Gryffindors spy on the Slytherin quidditch practice and are 
pleased as punch that their Seeker has the most expensive broom 
money can buy.  Hagrid took his anger at Vernon out on Vernon's 
child.  The Potterverse has never struck me as all that favorable to 
good sportmanship.  I get the sense JKR thinks it's a bit old-
fashioned.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I've never gotten the sense that Dumbledore was waiting for some 
> > great aha! moment from Snape.

> >>Nora: 
> The whole "I hoped Professor Snape would be able to get over..." 
> speech at the end of OotP seemed to me, at least, to be a hope not 
> only for the specific actions (that Snape would come to see Harry 
> as a person in and of himself and maybe even love him like        
> Dumbledore obviously does), but that those actions would actually 
> be a deep change in Snape's perspective on life.

Betsy Hp:
I actually agree with this.  I think Dumbledore would like for Snape 
to get to a point where he can finally forgive.  And I get the sense 
that he'd like both Harry and Snape to wake up and realize they're 
like seperated twins. <g>

> >>Nora:
> So yes, I think Dumbledore *has* been waiting for an 'aha!' from   
> Snape on a number of things, but in his Dumbledorean way, he's not 
> going to push or force him.

Betsy Hp:
Someone, somewhere (was it Carol?) pointed out that Dumbledore is 
actually quite hard on his adult Order members.  Sirius is forced to 
confront the family he ran away from.  Lupin is forced to confront 
the werewolf who made him.  And Snape is forced to confront being a 
Death Eater.

I don't think Dumbledore has been gently waiting for Snape to 
develop a moral sense.  For one, how do you trust 
someone "completely" who has no moral sense?  For another, 
Dumbledore doesn't gently wait.  Not with his adult charges.  Not if 
he needs them.

I think the waiting with Harry (the forced waiting) was actually one 
of Dumbledore's mistakes.  Usually he's a bit better at realizing 
that his people can take more than they think.  I guess it was 
Harry's youth that threw him off.

> >>Nora:
> I think he has this benign belief that Snape will eventually       
> figure things out for himself about how to be a better person.     
> Alas.

Betsy Hp:
I do think Dumbledore hopes that eventually Snape will learn how to 
forgive.  (I'm getting more and more stuck on the forgiveness thing, 
but it fits with a character following such a demanding moral 
code.)  And of course that would make Snape a better person.  
However, by entangling Snape in the Tower killing, Dumbledore is 
hardly being benign.  He's forcing (again) Snape into a position 
that if Snape cannot learn how to forgive (himself and Dumbledore) 
could very well destroy him.

Betsy Hp