[HPforGrownups] Re: Sportsmanship in Harry Potter

[Karen]

No: HPFGUIDX 151790


On May 2, 2006, at 3:56 PM, sistermagpie wrote:

>
>
> Magpie:
> Since you've give the take twice: what perspective is this supposed
> to give?  Because it sounds just kind of vaguely shaming, like
> because Harry had a terrible time at the end of GoF and other
> places, we shouldn't be discussing anything in the tournament
> leading up to it, or perhaps anything in canon, except to nod and
> say poor Harry, he deserves every scrap of happiness he can get.

kchuplis:

No, no, of course we should discuss it. We are discussing it. Just  
merely pointing out another point of view. And since we know that the  
folks involved in judging have probably even a better idea of what  
Harry's life is they have a different point of view. Just want to  
give a new direction of thought. Maybe it does sound kind of vaguely  
shaming. Maybe it should. I mean, lots of other posts sound outright  
damning. Maybe Fudge and DD et al. have something to be a little  
ashamed about when it comes to Harry.

magpie:

> The
> graveyard scene has nothing to do with the definition of
> sportsmanship, or whether or not giving a student points for "moral
> fibre" because he mistakenly thought lives were in danger and
> stopped to save them, fits that term.  Or whether the author might
> have written the hero losing something.

kchuplis:

Well, no, the graveyard scene however exemplifies just why some  
people might feel Harry deserves some slack though.

In reference to the lake task, the fact is, no other participant DID  
feel the overwhelming compulsion to save or to fear. Harry "fears" a  
lot really for safety, for his own, for others. Harry has a lot of  
reason TO fear. He's had plenty of "fear" experience. Even if Harry  
doesn't know the prophecy yet, I'd say his previous encounters and  
experience make it clear that anything can turn into "a bad day"  
pretty durned quick when he is involved in it. He has good reason to  
think something might go really wrong in the tournament since he  
didn't enter it and it's been made clear that there seems to be an  
ulterior motive. Given experience, there is no reason for Harry to  
think it's so that he can be school champion and cart around a trophy.

To me, there is a difference of punishing someone because someone  
else did something good, or rewarding what seems like altruistic  
behaviour. The tasks do pertain to sportsmanship, in one way, because  
sportsmanship has to do with the participants. Had Harry gloated  
about the fact he was rewarded that would be bad sportsmanship, but  
he doesn't. In fact, he seems to feel vaguely guilty through most of  
the tournament, when he isn't feeling scared and once in a while, he  
feels good about the fact that he is not yet- well dead-basically.

Sportsmanship doesn't pertain to the judges. None of the participants  
seem like bad sports. A lot of the adults do. Karkaroff in  
particular. And at least one judge has plenty of reason to feel  
guilty over Harry, as we well know now. So, in *that* respect, no,  
the awarding of extra points for moral fiber really has nothing to  
with sportsmanship. Harry's (and the others) acceptance of that does,  
but none of them seem to behave badly over it.
>
> As for whether any of those students would choose to still be Harry
> if they saw what happened in the graveyard?  Yes, many of them
> probably would.  Just like millions of kids all over the world read
> Harry's books and wish they were him.

kchuplis:

Now see, here's the rub. A lot of kids think blowing things up would  
be fun too. Or driving a hundred miles an hour. Or drinking until  
they are sick. Or that being skinny will solve their problems.  Only  
when it comes to the actuality they usually find they are wrong.  I  
doubt that Hogwart's students would really want to be Harry. It's  
very comfy *reading* about Harry. The students at Hogwart's are a  
separate case yet from readers. They are in Harry's reality. Most  
grew up seeing magic put right (and there are even a few who  
personally know that magic can very easily kill or maim - Can we say  
Luna and Neville?), BUT even they are so petrified of LV that they  
won't say Voldemort's name. They are that scared, in THEIR reality,  
of what that means they don't want to think about him. So, no, I  
really don't think that if you showed them what happened in the  
graveyard they would want to be Harry. And I don't think any of them  
can identify with any of the students in the tournament. That becomes  
a separate club the minute they each faced their first dragon. What  
they thought they knew it would be like and what they found out it  
was like is again defined for them, but not the other students.  
Certainly, none of them would want to be Harry after the graveyard.

We've gotten very comfy re-reading that scene. But try to remember  
the first time when it was the unknown for us. It was shocking.   
Instead of ending up surrounded by school friends, they arrive in a  
completely unknown, dark nasty place; (WE even have the advantage of  
a bit of orientation because we have the benefit of reading the first  
chapter. Harry and Cedric only know that they don't have any back up.  
I doubt either really believe sending up some red sparks will get  
them out of this.) how disorienting it must have been. Nearly  
immediately, Cedric, a "good guy" and totally out of his element was  
ruthlessly murdered. At the same time, Harry is rendered in such pain  
that he retches. This is the first time we have seen that level of  
pain from him. He is then subjected to, basically total, blind terror  
and pain over and over, along with humiliation and the utter belief  
that he is going to die. Seeing LV come back and reunite with his  
death eaters? Icing on the nasty poison cake. There is no seeing the  
other hundred pages that are in OUR hands; for Harry this is the end  
of the line. I guess my point is, placed in that reality, I doubt any  
Hogwart's student would begrudge Harry whatever he gets. The fact  
that they do begrudge Harry is because - they *didn't* - see what  
happened in the graveyard and hearing about various rumors regarding  
Harry is not at all the same thing as knowing, just as reading about  
the fictional characters is not "knowing".

magpie:
> Even without Voldemort the
> tournament is an excuse to put people in mortal danger; I think
> we're even told that there are fatalities in its past.  Yet it's
> still something kids are fighting to get into--personal glory and
> all that.

kchuplis:

Yes, lots of kids think war is glorious too. Knowing that you *could*  
get killed (and the folks running the tri-wizard merely kind of brush  
past all that and say they think they have it fixed....mostly) and  
being in a situation where you *know* you could be killed (as the  
participants start to realize when they start the tournament) or that  
you *will* be killed (as Harry believes in the graveyard) are two  
different things.

magpie:

> I think anybody who puts their name in that Goblet on
> purpose is crazy, myself, but if Harry had been a seventh year in
> GoF he'd have been up there doing it.

kchuplis:

Maybe, but that doesn't speak to what actually happened. As a  
fourteen year old, he had only a few giddy fantasy thoughts about it  
(which is probably about what even the seventh years have about this  
contest - vague fantasy thoughts of glory) and even then, decided  
that might not be for him, but got pushed into it anyway. For me, GoF  
was kind of all about what the difference is between "kind of  
knowing" and "knowing" for Harry (and probably for Cedric, but he  
didn't get to be aware of the "knowing" part a whole lot because he  
was killed.)


Betsy Hp:

I think this is exactly JKR's thinking.  It's the only explanation
that makes sense, IMO.  Because Harry is going through so many other
rather horrific adventures (especially as the books go along) she
makes his school life a breeze.

kchuplis:

It's probably also DD's thinking. I mean, he does know just what he  
is hiding from Harry, what he did in regards to Harry and knowing it  
was probably the best thing for the wizarding world doesn't make it  
the nicest thing, so you know, we have to look at that too.

I'm also not sure I would call what Harry has gone through at school  
"a breeze" either, no matter what help he has received. In that way,  
JKR failed him in order to keep the "entertaining" aspect of the  
books. It isn't a breeze to be stared at, sniggered at, routinely  
turned upon, chosen as THE whipping boy for potions class.

Sure, he's a hero on the quidditch field and Colin really likes him,  
but most of the kids don't seem to treat him "specially". They like  
it when they get to share in the glory of his winning house points,  
or a quidditch match or whatever, but they don't seem to hesitate in  
"casting him out", as it were, when they think he is the heir of  
Sytherin or when he gets entered into the tournament (and various  
other times that we kind find) in other words, when Harry doesn't do  
something *for them*.

BetsyHP:

I'm not sure I *agree* with the
direction she took.  For one, it never gives Harry a chance to
really, really shine.  To show that his graciousness can stand the
real heat of actually taking a loss.  We never get, I think, a true
demonstration of Harry's moral fiber.  Which is too bad, because I
think Harry has it, and it'd be great to see it in action.

kchuplis:

Soooooo how much more does Harry have to do to show real moral fiber?  
He rejects evil. He staunchly stands by friends that no one else  
seems to like (Hagrid, Hermione). He (correctly or incorrectly)  
sacrifices his chances at the tournament (whether he had help or not)  
when he chooses to stay and make sure the others are gotten out of  
the lake (remember, Harry did not expect any kind of reward for this,  
that I can tell, and even Cedric got 47 points, even though he was  
outside the time limits because of his good use of the bubble head  
charm - we don't know where he learned this charm); he went after  
Ginny in CoS,  there are numerous times when Harry does "the right  
thing". I guess I don't know just what he is supposed to do to show  
his character in a truer light. I know that I've seen it in action  
many times throughout the entire series. What more does he need to do?