Ginny Haters/ a bit of Draco

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 152223

Carol earlier:
> > Do you see a different sequence of events, with Voldemort actively
recruiting Draco? Certainly LV assigned him the job of killing
Dumbledore ("It''s my job; he gave it to me"), but I'm not aware of
any canon evidence that the original contact between Voldemort and
Draco was Voldemort's idea. Draco was proud of his discovery and eager
to share it with LV, both for his own "glory" and revenge against
dumbledore and Harry.
> >
> > I can't see Voldemort coming to Draco, saying, "I have an
assignment for you: Murder Dumbledore," and Draco saying, "Oh, I have
the perfect way to do that. I'll fix the Vanishing Cabinet and create
a passageway between Hogwarts and Borgin and Burkes." At which point
Voldemort would either need to use Legilimency or require an
explanation to know what he was talking about.
> >
> > It must have been the other way around; Draco told LV about the
> > passageway and volunteered to fix the cabinet, after which
Voldemort gave him the additional assignment, or ultimatum, of killing
Dumbledore, with the DEs as back up.
> >
> > At least that's how the evidence reads to me.
> 
> 
> Magpie:
> I definitely see another sequence of events because what's described
as not making sense is the whole plot of the book.  Voldemort gives
Draco an assignment to kill Dumbledore.  It's the only assignment
anyone ever talks about throughout the books. <snip>
> 
> The Vanishing Cabinets are the thing that raise it to another level,
and those were Draco's idea entirely.  They are the thing Draco thinks
will let him surprise everyone by actually succeeding.  He may have
told Voldemort about them immediately or told him later, but we never
see any hint that Voldemort has any plan involving DEs in Hogwarts
except killing DD. They are there to make sure DD gets killed, either
by Draco or by Snape.  We do have some reason to think that since
Snape at least says "he wants me to do it in the end."
> 
> But the bottom line is everyone agrees that Voldemort has given
Draco an assignment to kill Dumbledore which is really a plan to get
Draco killed to punish Lucius.  We also know that Draco was a willing
would-be DE. But the Cabinet plot is always linked to the murders. 
There's no evidence at all of Draco coming up with a plan to get DEs
into Hogwarts for some other reason, presenting that to Voldemort and
then having the killing added on as a surprise. I think that would
have come out with everything else on the Tower if it was important to
his story. <snip>
>
Carol responds:
So you think that Draco went to Voldemort to join up without telling
him about the Vanishing Cabinets and Voldemort then assigned him to
kill Dumbledore without knowing there was a way to get the DEs in as
backup to make sure that Draco (or Snape) did the job?

That makes no sense to me, no more than having Voldemort recruit
Draco. Almost certainly Draco volunteered for the job of DE and
volunteered to fix the cabinets at the same time. He was angry and
wanted revenge, as he tells Harry in OoP, and he's figured out how the
Vanishing Cabinets work. That seems like the perfect reason to go to
Voldemort. Voldemort would then see an opportunity to punish Lucius
Malfoy by adding a new component to Draco's plan: kill Dumbledore.

Once Draco began to fear that he couldn't fix the Vanishing Cabinet
and Voldemort began threatening him--kill Dumbledore or else--he
resorted to desperate measures like the cursed necklace and the
poisoned mead. But the Vanishing Cabinets were part of the plan from
the beginning, as shown by "Draco's Detour," and not only Borgin but
certain DEs--and therefore Voldemort--must have known about it. (Snape
did not; I agree with Pippin that Voldemort was planning to trap him
into killing DD or dying, and therefore he couldn't know that Draco
had found a chink in Hogwarts' armor).

The DEs didn't just arrive out of the blue. IMO, they were part of the
plan all along--part of what Draco envisioned even before he knew the
use to which his plan would be put, an assignment to kill Dumbledore.

On a sidenote, Draco threatens Borgin with a visit from Fenirir
Grayback, a "family friend." While I doubt that the Malfoys would let
Fenrir anywhere near their manor, I wonder if Draco was really
surprised when Fenrir showed up as one of the group of back-up DEs.
Clearly he was working with someone, perhaps the "brutal-faced Death
Eater" (whom I think must be Yaxley)?

At least we agree that the fixing Vanishing Cabinet was Draco's idea,
but I think he went to Voldemort with that idea and Voldemort then
gave him the assignment of using killing Dumbledore, promising him DEs
as backup if he fixed the Vanishing Cabinet.

You still haven't answered my question of whether 1) Voldemort
recruited Draco, gave him the seemingly impossible assignment of
killing DD, and Draco piped up with, "Oh, yeah! I have just the way!"
or, 2) Draco went to him with *no* plan, Voldemort assigned him to
kill DD, and Draco piped up with, "Oh, yeah! I have just the way!" or
3) Draco went to LV *with* a plan, which Voldemort then converted to
his own use, reocognizing it as a perfect opportunity to make sure
that DD was killed if the plan succeeded, but also indicating that he
wanted DD dead regardless.

I really don't see alternatives 1) or 2) as remotely feasible.

BTW, you apparently misunderstand me. I never suggested that there was
any plan to bring DEs into Hogwarts for any purpose other than killing
DD. I think that Draco proposed his idea and Voldemort immediately
assigned Draco to kill Dumbledore, with the Vanishing Cabinet plan as
the means of doing so--which is why completing that assignment was so
important to Draco.

I'm not disagreeing that Voldemort intended the plan to fail because
he wanted to punish Lucius. Nor did I ever suggest that Voldemort was
"passive." I'm only talking about chronology here.

To repeat: I think that Draco came up with the Vanishing Cabinet idea,
including the idea of fixing it himself, presented it to LV when he
went to join the Death Eaters, and Voldemort added a further,
unexpected, component to the plan: the order or ultimatum to kill
Dumbledore once the DEs got into the castle (or by some other means if
Draco couldn't fix the cabinet). *Of course* Voldemort expected Draco
to fail to kill Dumbledore once the DEs got in, but LV wanted it both
ways: dead Dumbledore and dead Draco, punished with death for his failure.

So I agree with most of your points. It's the idea that Draco didn't
tell Voldemort about the Vanishing Cabinets that leaves me mystified.
And I don't understand why you think Draco went to Voldemort at all if
it wasn't 1) to join up and 2) to present his bright idea of fixing
the cabinet, creating a passageway between Hogwarts and B&B so the DEs
could get in, and (ultimately) to be rewarded for this great service
to the Dark Lord.

Carol, who is *not* disputing what you call the "bottom line" and does
not see how it relates to the chronology argument