[HPforGrownups] Draco's Plot (was: Re: Ginny Haters/ a bit of Draco)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 152232

> Carol responds:
> So you think that Draco went to Voldemort to join up without telling
> him about the Vanishing Cabinets and Voldemort then assigned him to
> kill Dumbledore without knowing there was a way to get the DEs in as
> backup to make sure that Draco (or Snape) did the job?

Magpie:
Why not?  That's exactly what we're told in the book, that Voldemort gives 
Draco an assignment to kill Dumbledore that he can't possibly accomplish 
because he wants to punish Lucius Malfoy. Draco's having backup is not 
necessary for that.

Carol:
>
> That makes no sense to me, no more than having Voldemort recruit
> Draco.

Magpie:
It makes no sense to me that Voldemort put the Tri Wizard Tournament between 
Harry and the Portkey he needed him to touch, but that's what happened in 
canon.  Voldemort wants to punish Lucius Malfoy and Draco, as his son, is a 
way to punish him.  No one ever suggests at any point in canon that 
Voldemort has recruited Draco because he's got any value to him as a DE or 
that the Cabinet plan was the thing that captured his interest.

Carol:
Almost certainly Draco volunteered for the job of DE and
> volunteered to fix the cabinets at the same time. He was angry and
> wanted revenge, as he tells Harry in OoP, and he's figured out how the
> Vanishing Cabinets work. That seems like the perfect reason to go to
> Voldemort. Voldemort would then see an opportunity to punish Lucius
> Malfoy by adding a new component to Draco's plan: kill Dumbledore.

Magpie:
We don't know how Draco and Voldemort first got into contact with each 
other.  We know Draco was eager to do something for Voldemort, we know 
Voldemort wanted to punish Lucius Malfoy and saw getting Draco killed 
through an impossible task as being a good way to do it.  That's the 
information we have in canon connected to Draco's initially getting the 
assignment. It's never really suggested something else is needed on Draco's 
part to convince Voldemort to use him, so I don't think the lack of another 
reason supports the idea it was the Cabinets.

Carol:
>
> Once Draco began to fear that he couldn't fix the Vanishing Cabinet
> and Voldemort began threatening him--kill Dumbledore or else--he
> resorted to desperate measures like the cursed necklace and the
> poisoned mead. But the Vanishing Cabinets were part of the plan from
> the beginning, as shown by "Draco's Detour," and not only Borgin but
> certain DEs--and therefore Voldemort--must have known about it.

Magpie:
They were part of Draco's plan from the beginning absolutely, but we don't 
know how many people knew that when.  Voldemort and some DEs certainly could 
have known about the Cabinet plot very early on, but that says nothing 
whatsoever about whether Draco came up with a plot to get DEs into Hogwarts 
and brought it to Voldemort only to have Voldemort say yes, great idea--oh 
and that just gives me the idea to avenge myself on your father while you're 
at it.  Kill Dumbledore. The only thing we ever hear about how Draco got the 
assignment was related to Lucius' mistakes.

Carol:
(Snape
> did not; I agree with Pippin that Voldemort was planning to trap him
> into killing DD or dying, and therefore he couldn't know that Draco
> had found a chink in Hogwarts' armor).

Magpie:
So did Snape not know about the Cabinet because Voldemort ordered Draco to 
not tell him?  I think we lose some of the character stuff that way.

Carol:
>
> The DEs didn't just arrive out of the blue. IMO, they were part of the
> plan all along--part of what Draco envisioned even before he knew the
> use to which his plan would be put, an assignment to kill Dumbledore.

Magpie:
The DEs did not just arrive out of the blue, no.  They were part of the plan 
all along, yes--we see that in Draco's Detour.  That they were part of a 
plan Draco envisioned and brought to Voldemort to get DEs into the castle 
which then led to Voldemort tacking on the idea of Draco killing Dumbledore 
is the part that's not in canon and I think should be if it's true.

Carol:
> On a sidenote, Draco threatens Borgin with a visit from Fenirir
> Grayback, a "family friend." While I doubt that the Malfoys would let
> Fenrir anywhere near their manor, I wonder if Draco was really
> surprised when Fenrir showed up as one of the group of back-up DEs.

Magpie:
So that moment isn't really as simple or dramatic moment as it seems either.

Carol:
> At least we agree that the fixing Vanishing Cabinet was Draco's idea,

Magpie:
Yes, we're told that in canon.

Carol:
> You still haven't answered my question of whether 1) Voldemort
> recruited Draco, gave him the seemingly impossible assignment of
> killing DD, and Draco piped up with, "Oh, yeah! I have just the way!"
> or, 2) Draco went to him with *no* plan, Voldemort assigned him to
> kill DD, and Draco piped up with, "Oh, yeah! I have just the way!" or
> 3) Draco went to LV *with* a plan, which Voldemort then converted to
> his own use, reocognizing it as a perfect opportunity to make sure
> that DD was killed if the plan succeeded, but also indicating that he
> wanted DD dead regardless.

>
> I really don't see alternatives 1) or 2) as remotely feasible.

Magpie:
Nevertheless 1) / 2) is what we are told in canon. 3) is not. No one in 
canon questions the feasibility of 1/2.  Draco's worth as a DE is openly 
questioned, and that question answered by the fact that Voldemort is 
planning for him to die to punish his father. I think if the Cabinets came 
into it that conclusion would be there in the books.

Carol:
> I'm not disagreeing that Voldemort intended the plan to fail because
> he wanted to punish Lucius. Nor did I ever suggest that Voldemort was
> "passive." I'm only talking about chronology here.

Magpie:
Okay, but your chronology involves coming up with stuff no where mentioned 
in canon.  If the whole story of HBP starts this way it would be important 
for Draco's arc for us to know that and we don't.  If we are told it in the 
next book I will certainly believe it, but I can't see any way to write it 
into this book.

The idea that Draco realized he could get people into Hogwarts and went to 
Voldemort with the idea, thus sending Voldemort's wheels turning on a plot 
to get Snape in a Tower with a bunch of DEs and feeling he has to kill 
Voldemort can be made to fit canon, but I don't see a single independent 
reference to it anywhere.  It starts with events as they happened and then 
fits that idea onto it.

Carol:
> So I agree with most of your points. It's the idea that Draco didn't
> tell Voldemort about the Vanishing Cabinets that leaves me mystified.


Magpie:
I don't think Draco didn't tell Voldemort about the Cabinets ever.  I just 
see no reason that Draco's telling him about the Cabinets had to be the 
thing to set the plot in motion.  He could tell him at any time.

Carol:
> And I don't understand why you think Draco went to Voldemort at all if
> it wasn't 1) to join up and 2) to present his bright idea of fixing
> the cabinet, creating a passageway between Hogwarts and B&B so the DEs
> could get in, and (ultimately) to be rewarded for this great service
> to the Dark Lord.

Magpie:
I do agree that Draco wanted to join up.  We don't know what "going to 
Voldemort" entailed for him since Draco is already connected to DEs.  He 
wouldn't necessarily need to floo to Voldemort in the middle of the night 
and present himself for service.  He might have done that, or he might have 
been thrilled to get a call from Voldemort and brought to see him, since 
Voldemort is already well aware he exists.  The important thing for HBP is 
that Voldemort's eye has fallen on him.  Draco himself is eager to do 
Voldemort's bidding.  There's no indication that Draco had to bring anything 
to the table except that to get the assignment.  The thing Draco has that 
the book says is important to Voldemort is that he's Lucius Malfoy's son. 
That he has figured out a way to get DEs into Hogwarts is important to the 
plot too, but it's never suggested as the thing that's gotten him the 
assignment or brought him to Voldemort's attention.

> Magpie:
> Which is exactly what the plan is supposed to be, as we are told in
canon.
> It is not supposed to be a success.  Voldemort's plan is for Draco
to die,
> not for Dumbledore to die at the hand of Draco.  There is not "an
element"
> of vengeance, the plan is about vengeance.


Gerry
Are we told that?

Magpie:
Yeah, we are.  It's the only explanation we're ever given.  No, Narcissa 
doesn't know Draco's come up with a way into Hogwarts.

Gerry:
So maybe we are all supposed to
think this is about LV revenging himself on Lucius. But what if in all
these years this is the first time LV can get somebody totally
unsuspected in DD's proximity for a prolonged time? This is the first
time he has a schoolboy Death Eater. That gives opportunities he never
had before. Combined with the vanishing cabinet I'm sure LV sees these
opportunities. And likes them a lot.

Magpie:
Again, this is the way with theories that involve the reader making a lot of 
stuff up.  However much we like them, they effectively unwrite the book we 
just read so we can rewrite it ourselves.  If we were all just supposed to 
think Voldemort wanted revenge on Lucius then the whole book didn't happen. 
That's not the author being tricky, it's the reader saying, "Bored with this 
book now.  I'm going to make up an alternate story."

Gerry:
There were other DE's involved in the MoM fiasco, remember. Is he
going to take revenge on all their families?

Magpie:
Lucius has always been characterized as the DE on the edge, the slippery 
friend, playing a little too dangerous a game with Voldemort.  He got the 
diary destroyed.  He's been set up for punishment for a long time.  It's 
another example of how JKR really does put signs of stuff like this in the 
books.

-m