Amortentia and re The morality of love potions/Merope and Tom Sr.

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 152308

 > Carol responds:
> First, I'm very curious as to whether any *male* list members would
> classify what happened to Tom Sr. as "rape." IMO, it's more like
> seduction and entrapment into marriage (admittedly not justifiable 
or
> moral actions), and it's his inability to marry the woman of his
> choice that upsets him and causes him to be a recluse in his 
parents'
> house.

Alla:

Why is that? He was forced to sleep with somebody who he would not 
sleep with while in his right mind. How is it not rape? Would you say 
that if woman would drank a day rape drug in her drink and forced to 
sleep with someone, it is not rape too?


Carol:
<SNIP>
> If Tom were merely the victim of unwanted sex with a girl he was
> repulsed by, he could have gotten over it just as men get over 
having
> sex with girls they don't know after having had too many drinks, or
> encounters with prostitutes that they later regret but don't spend
> their lives reliving and repenting. Men don't make a big deal about
> losing their virginity or undesirable sex partners unless there are
> other consequences like venereal disease or the woman's pregnancy.
> IMO, it wasn't the sex so much as the marriage that in his view 
ruined
> his life.

Alla:

What are you basing your conclusions on? He was violated on the daily 
basis for months and you are saying that he should have gotten over 
it? Just because he is a man? Would you expect from woman to just get 
over unwanted sex too?


Carol:
 Once he got over the initial outrage and humiliation,
> he should have seen that she, a lifelong victim of abuse, only 
wanted
> to be loved, that she was sorry for her mistake, that as a fellow
> human being, she deserved to be treated with compassion even though
> she had hurt him. Does being sorry and trying to make amends for a
> mistake count for nothing?
<SNIP>

Alla:

Mistake? Trap another human being in her bed is a mistake? In my book 
it is a crime, a horrendous crime.
And no, being sorry for rape does not count for much, although I 
don't remember her saying that she is sorry either.


Carol:
<SNIP>
He lost his marital prospects; she
> was condemned, along with her unborn child, to a life of misery. I
> don't understand how you can condemn the Dursleys' treatment of 
Harry
> and not condemn Tom Sr.'s treatment of Tom Jr., if not of Merope, 
who
> was young, uneducated, depressed, poverty-stricken and helpless, 
with
> or without her magic, which could provide neither food nor money. No
> one deserves that sort of life. Two wrongs do not make a right. If
> your wife or husband abuses you, you do not have the right to abuse
> him or her in return.

Alla:

Um, easy. I am sorry you don't see it. I don't remember Harry forcing 
Dursleys to sleep with him ( shudders at the mental image). Tom 
Riddle did not ASK to be Merope husband.
He never left his house after she was through with him.

Carol:
> Merope, after having sinned or erred or whatever you want to call 
it,
> repented. She did what was right, not what was easy, by telling Tom
> the truth. 

Alla:

Or as Magpie said she was still doing after her own means, because 
she did not like drugged husband anymore.

Carol:
He, however, did not forgive her or relent in his cold,
> cruel punishment of her transgression. He blamed her, abandoned her
> and their child, and went off to live with his parents, not 
providing
> her with a penny. He did what was easy, not what was right.

Alla:

I cannot imagine a worst punishment for rape victim that staring in 
the face of the child conceived under such circumstances


Carol:
<SNIP>
 He had a moral obligation to care for his
> child regardless of the circumstances of its conception. And his
> injuries did not justify deliberate cruelty and neglect toward 
someone
> who had asked his forgiveness.

Alla:
Not in my book. In my book he suffered enough without being imposed 
on with his child and I don't remember anywhere in canon Merope 
asking him for forgiveness, by the way. She stopped feeding him the 
potion that does NOT equal forgiveness in my book. That is stopping 
committing the crime, that is all.
As I said I think it is great if he was able to care for his child, 
because nobody could argue that the baby is innocent indeed, but to 
IMPOSE on him?

Nope, I very strongly disagree.

 
> Carol, who can understand Tom Sr.'s conduct but cannot condone it 
and
> does not think that any mistake should be punished with misery like
> Merope's

Alla:

So, if the places were switched and Merope was young and rich and 
beautiful and Tom Riddle was ugly wizard who slipped her love potion, 
would you still think that Merope had any kind of obligation to care 
for the child, or is it only because poor Tom is a man and for some 
reason should just get over the rape?

You know, I have to forcibly remind myself that Merope was a victim 
of abuse and needs to be pitied at least for that, otherwise I would 
hate her a great deal. But poor Tom had NOTHING to do with her abuse, 
he wanted to live HIS life and she took this possibility away from 
him.

> 

> Pippin:
<SNIP>
>> Till death us do part. Marriage was pretty much an unbreakable vow 
in
>  those days. 
> 
> By the laws and customs of that era, Tom  owed Merope support as
> long as she was faithful to  him, and I don't think anyone  has 
> suggested that she wasn't. 

Alla:

Magpie wrote really well about law and customs of that era. I also 
don't see Merope as poor girl of the 19th century. but if I 
understand you correctly you are saying that marriage under the 
influence of Love potion is still to be honored. 

Or you are saying that Love potion wore off at the day of marriage.

I wonder how often Merope drugged this poor guy at that "joyful" 
occasion. Every hour? Fifteen minutes?

Alla, wants to find  appropriate words to describe how she feels but 
really having trouble. I am having trouble to say that Merope ASKED 
to be pregnant, but I have no problem saying that she indeed asked 
for all the misery she got after she was done with Tom Riddle.