Amortentia and re The morality of love potions/Merope and Tom Sr.

[Maria Vaerewijck]

No: HPFGUIDX 152360

Julie:
I don't think Tom's situation is analagous to rape because no
physical incapacity or coercion was involved, rather his emotions
were played with. It is more analagous to a man telling a woman he
loves her and wants to marry her just to get sex. That sexual
relationship is based on deceit, just as Tom and Merope's sexual
relationship is based on deceit, on the effect of the love potion
making Tom believe he cared for her. Just as a woman would be
justifiably angry at being tricked into believing a man loved her, I
think Tom is justifiably angry at being tricked into believing he
loved Merope. But I still don't see it as rape.

Alla:

I disagree. In the situation you describe man or woman can still 
CHOOSE whether to believe those lies or trickery or not. Granted, the 
liar can play their part very well, but IMO there is still a choice. 
The person under the influence of love potion has absolutely no 
choice but to feel "affection" for the person who drugs the other 
person, no?

Just as in rape there is absolutely no choice for other person 
involved. I don't remember canon supporting the argument that love 
potions can be overcomed somehow?

  Maria8162001 here:
   
  Bear with me nice elves if I don't snip anything from this conversation.
  I'm a woman and a mother of 3 children, but I agree with Alla and Gerry in this. What Merope did IMO is also rape and he violated TOm Sr's rights, physically and mentally. She used love potion to make Tom Sr. marry her, is that rape? IMO, YES! Why? because even in marriage without  using love potion if a woman is forced by her husband to have sex with her when she doesn't want it, that is also called rape. A husband cannot forced his own wife to make love or have sex with him if she doesn't want to without calling it as rape. So how much more with a false marriage like what Merope did to Tome Sr.

Julie:
Again he wasn't violated, IMO, he was tricked, into believing he
loved her because she was gorgeous and desirable in his eyes, when
she really wasn't once he saw how she really looked.

Alla:

But what's the difference here? Is there any? He had no choice but to 
have sex with her the way I see it.

  maria8162001:
  There is no diffrence, tricking him into believing he love her because she so desirable in his eyes because of the love potion is still a violation. That is the same as being drug or drunk,IMO.

Julie:
<SNIP>
BTW, Tom doesn't have to stare the child in the face. He can simply
help provide for its care, or help arrange an adoption if Merope is
unable or unwilling to care for the child.

Alla:

Sure, he can and I would think that he is a great man if he did so, 
it would be very admirable, but since he did not do so, I think that 
he is a hurt man, broken even, since if I may say again he almost 
never left the house after he came back. That is to me the behaviour 
of the trauma victim.

  maria8162001: 
   
  Easier said than done. Like what Alla said Tom Sr; would be a great man to do that. IMO, I don't think anyone from us, male or female would actually do what most are suggesting that  Tom Sr., could have at least support the child or could have arrange something for the child. If what happened to Tom sr., would happen to anybody from us I bet we would all do the same cut off our contact from the person who rape, decieved and violated us. It would take a great man(man or woman) to actually still have  contact with anyone who violated them, with or without child. If that happen to me I would really hate the person and I would not want to see and have contact with that person ever with or without a child and I am not even certain what I woulddo if there's a child involved as a result of that rape, deciet and violation or whatever others will call it. It is not the fault of the child and the child cannot help it, I know but I cannot help it also if that happens and certainly
 TomSr., cannot help it also he just didn't to have any part of that anymore.
  
Julie:

We have *no* clue what conversation transpired between Merope and
Tom, though it's a good bet she did beg for forgiveness, as she
certainly wanted him to stay with her. Granting forgiveness is of
course his choice, and clearly he didn't do so since he left and had
no further contact with her or the child that we know of.

Alla:

Of course. It is possible, I was just saying that there is no such 
conversation described.
And if I may say again, we don't even know if Tom knew of Merope's 
pregnancy. Not that I would think worse of him, if he did knew, but 
who knows, maybe indeed he was such a good man that he would have 
cared for the child which Merope beared.

  maria8162001:
   
  All I could say in this is Merope is well capable of giving a better life for her son if she wanted to, but she chose not to. I do not blame Tom sr., for this I blame Merope. She should take responsibility for her action. this is what we all have to know and remember for everything we do there are consequences and we should take responsiblity for our every actions and not blame it on anybody.

Julie:
I think she would have a moral obligation to make sure the child was
cared for. She could choose to ignore that obligation, and society
might not even condemn her for it, but that doesn't make it morally
right.

Alla:

Okay, fair enough. This is at least consistent position. I don't 
agree with it at all, but I understand.
   
  maria8162001:
   
  Yes she would have moral obligation but I don't think she would do anything for the child also if the situation was reverse. Why do you think in our own society there are a lot of unwanted children and abortion? Because in real most people even especially the rich/aristocrats doesn't take their moral obligations. Now a days it's more easy, they would just have an abotion anywhere, rich and poor alike. And they were not even raped they just do not want the child. So how much more if you were raped, violated or decieved. com' on let's be real.


Gerry:
<SNIP of the whole post>
I totally agree with that, but I don't agree it is Tom who should give
the compassion, the forgiveness or the love.

Alla:
I really like what Gerry said.
What I meant is that I have to remind myself that she is a victim of 
abuse after I read what she did to Tom. Since I said that I see it as 
rape, I can see her upbringing as explanation, but not as 
justification of what she did at all.

She loses all my empathy when I read those scenes, that is why I have 
to remind myself that she suffered at home in order to not have 
completely one sided picture of her in my head, because if I would 
have only read about her and Tom without her upbringing, well then I 
would see her close to monster, frankly.

And I don't see how her intent was not to harm if she knew that Tom 
loved another woman.

maria8162001:
   
  I'm with Gerry, I don't think as well that it is Tom who should give her the compassion, forgiveness and love. Can anybody really say that after they have been raped, violated or decieved that they would honestly have compassion or forgive and love the person who violated them? 
  Now a days, people always use their upbringings as an excuse for their misbehavior because the lawyers made it so. IMO, it is Tom Sr., who is the victim and not Merope. Merope have take responsibility for her actions and face the consequences but whet chose is just get out the easy way. She wanted Tom, she wanted to have a child from so at least she should have take responsibilty for her action by caring for her own child. JMO