Amortentia and re The morality of love potions/Merope and Tom Sr.

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 152382

> >>Betsy Hp wrote:
> > You're completely and totally wrong about this, Carol.  Rape is 
> > rape is rape.  Male or female, a victim of rape *is* effected.
> > <snip>

> >>Carol:
> Thank you for the circular definition, Betsy, but I know what rape 
> is, and if I didn't, I'm afraid that "rape is rape is rape"       
> wouldn't enlighten me. 

Betsy Hp:
Honestly, I'm starting to think the reason this issue has become so 
heated is because there *isn't* an agreement on what rape is.  
Here's the comment I was responding to:

> >>Carol:
> > <SNIP>
> > If Tom were merely the victim of unwanted sex with a girl he was
> > repulsed by, he could have gotten over it just as men get over
> > having sex with girls they don't know after having had too many
> > drinks, or encounters with prostitutes that they later regret
> > but don't spend their lives reliving and repenting. Men don't
> > make a big deal about losing their virginity or undesirable sex
> > partners unless there are other consequences like venereal
> > disease or the woman's pregnancy.

Betsy Hp:
Unwanted sex *is* rape.  So you appeared to be taking the rather 
cavalier view that a raped man should just "get over it".  Which I 
did find absolutely horrifying.  The suggestion that this is what 
all male rape victims do, and that men don't even care about their 
virginity or who they have sex with, etc., struck me as totally and 
completely wrong.  So that's what I said.

> >>Carol:
> <snip>
> I am more than a bit offended that you would imply that I have no 
> compassion for the victims of pederasty and homosexual rape, which 
> of course are brutal and horrendous crimes. May I politely point
> that we are talking about something rather different here?

Betsy Hp:
Tom was not physically brutalized.  Physically he was unhurt.  His 
will was subjugated, he was completely dominated by his "wife" and 
he was made to turn his back on anything he may have cared for 
(friends, family, social standing, what have you).

So yes, this is a different sort of rape.  One that included Tom's 
mind as well as his body.  Frankly, I believe it equates with a 
mother raping her son, and making him feel that he's lucky to be so 
completely loved.  The analogy isn't perfect, but I think it 
illustrates the authority Merope had over Tom when she destroyed his 
will by using either a love potion or the Imperius curse.

> >>Carol:
> Nor can what Merope did be compared to Morfin whisking Tom away to
> have homosexual sex with him.

Betsy Hp:
Not even if Morfin gave Tom a love potion, and Tom was positive that 
he'd found his true love?

> >>Carol:
> Merope gave Tom a *Love* potion.

Betsy Hp:
Or she used the Imperius curse.  Canon never clarifies it.  
Dumbledore makes a guess, but it's based on his view of the 
aggressor's mind set, not on the victim's behavior.  (Apparently a 
Muggle under the influence of a love potion reacts exactly like a 
Muggle hit by the Imperius curse.)

> >>Carol:
> Given her background, is it not conceivable that she took the name 
> at face value and thought that it would make him *love* her?

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I can totally buy that.  Still doesn't change what happened to 
Tom.  He was raped by a woman trying to make him love her.  Just as, 
if Morfin had been the one throwing the curse or giving Tom the 
potion, Tom would have been raped by a man trying to make him love 
him.

> >>Carol:
> <snip>
> We know that Tom claimed to be "hoodwinked," meaning that he was
> tricked into marrying Merope, not into having sex with her. Surely 
> the marriage to a woman he didn't love, a marriage that he        
> could not legally escape from, was a more serious matter to a     
> young man like Tom than a few acts of what would have been        
> consensual sex with a woman he thought he loved or revulsion at    
> the thought of sex with Merope?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
How do we know that "hoodwinked" means trapped into marriage, but 
not into sex?  How do we know that Tom was more horrified at being 
forced into a marriage he didn't want than into a sexual encounter 
he didn't want?  How do we know what sort of man Tom is?  (I suppose 
we're to presume that the villagers are as correct about snobby Tom 
as they're incorrect about murderer Frank?)  And my biggest 
question: how is unwanted sex consensual?  I take it you would say 
the little boy who tried to kill his grandparents in HBP is guilty 
of attempted murder despite the use of Imperius?

> >>Carol:
> All I am asking is a little understanding and compassion for      
> Merope, who does not fit the pattern of a rapist or even a        
> seductress.

Betsy Hp:
I pointed this out before, but Merope fits exactly the stereotypical 
witch who seduces and rapes the virtuous young man from a good home 
of folk lore and fairy tales.  From the hovel she lives in to her 
physical ugliness, I think JKR had fun playing with that old, old 
image.

> >>Carol:
> <snip>
> I am afraid that certain members of this list would have burned    
> her at the stake if they had discovered her "crime."

Betsy Hp:
Merope feels she should die for her crime, and so she does.  I 
actually do feel bad for her, but I can do that while at the same 
time recognizing that she did rape Tom.

But yeah, in a time when people did believe in witches, Tom would 
have been believed, Merope would have been jailed, her child would 
have been adopted into an anonymous family, and she would have been 
burned or stoned or drowned or otherwise put to death.  Of course, 
that was a more brutal time, when thieves were put to death as well.

I'm not actually saying that's what should have happened to Merope.  
But maybe some punishment would have done her some good.  Helped her 
get over her guilt so that she could learn to live again.

> >>Carol:
> (How dare a woman use power of any sort on a man? She must be an   
> evil seductress, no, a rapist, and a witch at that! Send her out   
> to die of starvation with her unborn brat! That's the mentality    
> I'm seeing here, and I don't think it's the view that JKR wants us 
> to have.)
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'm afraid I have a hard time seeing a rapist as a feminist martyr, 
I don't care if that's what JKR had in mind or not.  And yeah, I 
also don't care if you're male or female or aardvark: totally 
subjucating someone to your will is a no-no in my book.


Betsy Hp (who did a crap load of editing to this reply to try to be 
as inoffensive as possible)