Snape the teacher

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 152398

Shaun wrote:
> > But I do know that a teacher can have all the appearances of 
> > Snape (and more) and really still have his students in mind.

Dan: 
> But Shaun, it's not just appearences of Snape that we have - it's
> actions - Rowling goes a great length to show that Snape can accuse
> wrongly, while still being close to the mark. <snip>

Shaun: 
> > 'He demanded the best of everyone.' ****** ****** is also 
> > remembered as a strict disciplinarian."

Dan: 
> This is not disciplinarianism we're talking about, though, but in
> class prejudice against certain students. Was your teacher afraid 
> of any of the boys parents, as in a Lucius Malfoy? Did he have a 
> pet, as in Draco? These are the things that stick out for me...


SSSusan:
Dan! So good to see you post again!  And it's nice that you've 
raised the issue I was interested in raising as well. ;-)

Shaun, you know that education is near and dear to my heart as well, 
since I'm a former high school social studies teacher, have a school 
counseling degree and am a current school board member.  For me the 
Snape traits of holding students to extremely high standards and 
brooking no goofing off and expecting a respect for the subject 
matter and the instructor are all FINE.  Hell, they're more than 
fine.  They're DANDY, too.  

You mentioned in your post wondering if people think students like 
you *don't matter* when they criticize a Snape or a Snape-like 
teacher.  Heavens, no, it's not that!  Not for me, at least.  I 
think what it is is wondering if **all** of the "Snapely" traits 
were ones which you needed and appreciated??  

I mean, those things I mentioned in the previous paragraph, as well 
as that "in-your-face" confrontation when you deserved a good 
dressing down for behavior or for not achieving to your abilities, 
are things I *do* understand when you speak of your Snape-like 
teachers.  

But did these teachers also display FAVORITISM [Draco/Slyths]?  Did 
they hold open GRUDGES against students [Harry]?  Were they 
sometimes MEAN when it wasn't called for [Hermione's teeth]?  I am 
not saying Snape is constantly guilty of doing all of these things 
(nor that Harry never deserved dressing down!), but I think even 
those who tend to defend Snape will agree that he's certainly had 
his moments of unfairness.  THAT'S the part of Snape that I object 
to, and THAT'S the part of your saying you've appreciated and needed 
Snape-like teachers that has, yes, left me a little incredulous.

Do you mean *that* part of the package, too?  And if you do, would 
you mind explaining how open favoritism/prejudice, how differential 
treatment of students (and I don't mean in teaching STYLE but in 
flat-out meanness towards some but not all) can be beneficial?

I don't ask that to be *challenging* you, because I didn't live your 
experience; only you can speak to that.  But I ask it to get it out 
on the table, because that is the part of the presentation of "Snape 
Teachers Can Be Good" that I don't grasp.  


Shaun: 
> > I can't demonstrate this statistically but I do have the 
> > impression that most of those who express a dislike for Snape 
> > *as a teacher* on this list are female, and most of those who 
> > express support for his teaching style as valid are male. 

SSSusan:
A fascinating possibility, Shaun.  Though...

Dan:
> Shaun, this is impossible to say. I'm male, and I think Snape is a
> nasty cow. 

SSSusan:
... so it would be interesting to actually assess this somehow.


Shaun:
> > Stress improves learning in males 

Dan: 
> Again, as you identify, we would need to define our terms much more
> clearly. Learning math? Learning how to instruct others? Learning 
> what is good or bad? <snip>

SSSusan:
And I would add that one might also need to define "stress."  What 
FORM of stress improves learning?

Siriusly Snapey Susan, who sincerely hopes she comes across as 
curious, not as critical.