[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the teacher

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 152415

On 18 May 2006 at 1:10, cubfanbudwoman (SSSusan) wrote:

> Shaun, you know that education is near and dear to my heart as 
> well, since I'm a former high school social studies teacher, have a 
> school 
> counseling degree and am a current school board member.  For me the 
> Snape traits of holding students to extremely high standards and 
> brooking no goofing off and expecting a respect for the subject 
> matter and the instructor are all FINE.  Hell, they're more than 
> fine.  They're DANDY, too.  
> 
> You mentioned in your post wondering if people think students like 
> you *don't matter* when they criticize a Snape or a Snape-like 
> teacher.  Heavens, no, it's not that!  Not for me, at least.  I 
> think what it is is wondering if **all** of the "Snapely" traits 
> were ones which you needed and appreciated??  

Shaun:

A very interesting question, and one I will try to answer as well as 
I can. Just as I have started though, I noticed another message 
you've sent to the list about finding fun in the books. I might 
replay to that in more detail later, but I just wanted to say before 
I continue what will probably be quite a serious message, that I 
personally do find fun in the books in all sorts of ways - but this 
type of thing is fun for me as well. This type of analysis is stuff 
that I greatly enjoy.

I should also say before continuing that I don't mind being 
challenged on this type of thing, because I can understand that 
people might find what I'm saying difficult to grasp if their 
experiences were very different from my own. My views are shaped by 
my experiences, and those of kids I know and work with - and if 
people have had different experiences, of course, they are likely to 
see things differently.

But one thing I have had to learn in my own life looking back on my 
own childhood is that it's a mistake to judge whether something in 
education is a good or bad thing based only on your own experiences. 
Things that were good for me were probably bad for some other kids. 
Things that were bad for me were probably good for some other kids. 
And it took me a long time to realise that.

SSSusan:
> Do you mean *that* part of the package, too?  And if you do, would 
> you mind explaining how open favoritism/prejudice, how differential 
> treatment of students (and I don't mean in teaching STYLE but in 
> flat-out meanness towards some but not all) can be beneficial?

Shaun:

Do I mean that part of the passage as well? Yes, and no. There are 
certainly things that Snape has done that I do not believe are good 
or justified. But the thing that is also true of just about every 
single teacher I had when I was a kid, both the good ones and the 
bad ones (my assessments). Teachers aren't perfect, they're not 
saints. Every teacher gets some things wrong sometimes even if they 
are brilliant teachers. One of my teachers (not one of the Snape 
like ones) won a National Excellence in Teaching Award a few years 
ago. She has been judged by her peers to be one of Australia's best 
teachers and I've no reason to argue with their assessment. But she 
did some pretty awful things to me when I was in her classes. Even 
the best teachers drop some real clangers occasionally

Now, I've snipped out some of the paragraphs you wrote because I 
would have been quoting an awful lot otherwise, but I'm taking the 
liberty of taking sentences out one at a time to reply to each point 
you made: 

SSSusan:
> But did these teachers also display FAVORITISM [Draco/Slyths]?

Shaun:
Yes, they did. And this is one area where I can't see anything wrong 
with doing this. Most teachers I can recall from my schooling had 
students who they favoured. Sometimes for good reason that was 
obvious to me. Sometimes for no reason that was obvious to me 
(although one may well have existed). It's human nature to have 
favourites among other people - and expecting teachers not to do 
this, is to me expecting teachers to be less than human.

But the context matters. Snape is Draco's (and the Slytherin's) Head 
of House. As McGonagall points out in PS, the student's Houses, 
while they are at Hogwarts are the closest things they have to 
families. Their Head of House is the closest thing they have to a 
parent. And these are children. There's nothing wrong with that type 
of support being available. And that involves favouritism in one 
form or another.

Snape is responsible for teaching potions to the students of 
Hogwarts. But his responsibility to the Slytherins is above and 
beyond that. He has a specific duty to them, because he is their 
Head of House. And trying to do that type of job without showing 
favouritism isn't exactly consistent.

Some teachers have a greater responsibility to their students, or to 
particular students than others, by virtue of the position they 
hold.  In that situation, I certainly don't see anything wrong with 
some degree of favouritism.

Yes, the Gryffindors seem to believe that Snape favours his House 
and that McGonagall doesn't favour hers - and it's not impossible 
that they are right about that. But kids really aren't the best 
position to judge such things - I know we weren't when I was at 
school.

You know, part of the reason my worst year of schooling was so bad 
for me is because the teacher who was supposed to be especially 
responsible for my welfare that year - my homeroom teacher - was the 
main cause of my problems. There was, by design, supposed to be a 
teacher with special responsibility for a particular student - the 
system broke down for me, because she was my major problem. When I 
changed schools at the end of that year, at each point of my 
schooling, our schools system gave us three teachers with special 
responsibility for us - our Form Master, our House Master, and our 
Tutor. In my first year at this school, I actually had one man 
filling all three of these positions for me simultaneously - because 
he decided he was the best suited to give me what I needed based on 
what he'd been told about me (I was a 'special case' due to my 
previous experiences) and he therefore made sure he was the one in 
my corner. Was that favouritism? You bet it was. But at the time I 
was utterly unaware of it. And it wasn't expressed in ways I found 
particularly comfortable at the time. Looking back as an adult, I 
can see what a friend that man was to me - at the time though, the 
suggestion he was favouring me would have made me collapse into 
gales of laughter.

My point is that it is Snape's job to 'favour' the Slytherins to 
some extent. I may not agree with every aspect of how he does this, 
but I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially not in a boarding 
school, where the kids don't have parents there to give them special 
support if they need it.

If you want to talk about favouritism causing problems, it's 
Slughorn's Slug Club that gives me far more cause for concern than 
what Snape does. Even that doesn't worry me incredibly - but it 
worries me more than Snape's actions.

SSSusan:
> Did they hold open GRUDGES against students [Harry]?  

Shaun:
No, not that I am aware of. But then again, to the best of my 
knowledge, I didn't have a single teacher who had been bullied by a 
gang lead by the father of one of his students when they were at 
school together.

I think Snape's treatment of Harry is unfair, and unjust. I also 
think Harry makes it worse over time by his attitude, but Snape did 
start it in my view, and he's an adult and Harry is a child, so he 
is responsible for it beginning, and he's most responsible for its 
continuation. But it is a very unusual and very specific situation. 
I've thought about what would happen if I found myself in the 
position of having the child one of my tormentors in a classroom 
some day. Especially one who looked so much like the person who 
bullied me. I hope I wouldn't have an issue with that child, but I 
honestly don't want to find out.

SSSusan:
> Were they sometimes MEAN when it wasn't called for [Hermione's
> teeth]?

Shaun:
Very occasionally, yes, they were. And I hated them for it - and 
when one of them did it to one of my friends, unfortunately for me, 
he was able to hear very clearly what I called him and I paid a 
pretty high price for the things I said. And I still think what that 
man did was utterly unjustifiable. And I think that what Snape said 
about Hermione's teeth is also utterly unjustifiable.

And if a teacher made a habit, of vicious and malicious and utterly 
uncalled for statements like that, then I would want him gone. But 
the thing is - I don't think Snape does.

The Hermione's teeth incident, horrifying as it is, is one incident 
after four years - actually I'll just include a little quote to 
illustrate my point of view.

"'Malfoy got Hermione!' Ron said. 'Look!'

He forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth - she was doing her best 
to hide them with her hands, though this was difficult as they had 
now grown down past her collar. Pansy Parkinson and the other 
Slytherin girls were doubled up with silent giggles, pointing at 
Hermione from behind Snape's back.

Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, 'I see no difference.'

Hermione let out a whimper; her eyes filled with tears, she turned 
on her heel and ran, ran all the way up the corridor and out of 
sight."

(GoF, p263).

To me something very telling takes place in this little scene. After 
four years of knowing Snape, being taught by Snape, and actively 
hating Snape with a passion, Ron still seems to expect Snape to act 
appropriately to Hermione's condition. He knows Snape is nasty, and 
vindictive, and vicious and whatever other label you may want to put 
on him. And he still expects Snape to take appropriate action.

Ron is not the type of person in my opinion to *underestimate* how 
nasty Snape can be. What Snape does in this case is utterly 
unexpected - even to students like Harry, and Ron, and Hermione who 
hate him.

It's not a normal response.

I do think what Snape does in that case is wrong. But I think that 
is an unusual case. I've read through all of Snape's interactions 
with his students quite carefully and in my view that one really 
does stand out for petty meanness with no apparent justification.

And I don't like seeing a teacher do that. I don't think it's 
appropriate. I didn't think it was appropriate when it was done to 
my friend either when I was at school. And *if* there was a way of 
stopping a teacher doing those things *without* stopping them doing 
other things that might be beneficial, I'd support that.

But the problem for me, is I'm not sure if that is possible.

I do make a very real distinction between a nasty comment made in a 
classroom environment as a form of attempting to discipline a 
student for a real fault, and a nasty comment made for no good 
reason.

I think the former can be appropriate in some cases. I think the 
latter is inappropriate.

The problem I have is that the Snape like teachers I had - how would 
we have eliminated the risk of the latter, without also eliminating 
the former?

That's what gives me pause.

And when you are judging a teacher as a teacher, you need to look at 
the whole picture - not single incidents (yes, there can be single 
incidents that invalidate everything else - child molestation, for 
example - but generally speaking things aren't at that level.)

> Shaun: 
> > > I can't demonstrate this statistically but I do have the 
> > > impression that most of those who express a dislike for Snape 
> > > *as a teacher* on this list are female, and most of those who 
> > > express support for his teaching style as valid are male. 
> 
> SSSusan:
> A fascinating possibility, Shaun.  Though...
<SNIP>
> SSSusan:
> ... so it would be interesting to actually assess this somehow.

Shaun:

Depending on what thesis topic I wind up getting approval for, I 
might actually try and look at this.
 
> SSSusan:
> And I would add that one might also need to define "stress."  What 
> FORM of stress improves learning?

Shaun:
A very good question. I actually intend to get copies of all the 
articles Sax cites and check out these details - his information 
comes from a very wide range of places and different types of 
studies.

I'm actually going to a seminar he is running this evening - he's in 
Australia on a tour, having been brought out here by some single sex 
schools to promote the idea of single sex education.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia


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