Abuse, etc., was Snape, Apologies, and and Redemption--Lupin vs. DD

[leslie41]

No: HPFGUIDX 152583

 
> > Leslie41:
> > Hey, I'm the last person to support Snape as a model of an 
> > emotionally healthy, self-actualized adult.  But I don't think 
> > he's abusive, and I would argue that his effect on Harry has 
> > been more positive than negative, especially when you consider 
> > what Snape, (esp. as the HBP) has taught him.
> > 
> > No bezoar, Ron *dies*.  That's a fact.  The HBP taught Harry how 
> > to save his best friend.  And that's just one example (albeit 
> > the most potent one I think). One would be hard pressed to come 
> > up with a similar example from any one of the other "good" 
> > teachers.        
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Harry did not learn about bezoar on Snape's lessons. 

Leslie41:
But of course he did.  A classroom and student/teacher interaction 
are not required for someone to learn a lesson.  The book contained 
what the HBP knew, and Harry read it and assimilated it.   

> Alla:
> Does the fact that Snape wrote such a book somehow makes him less 
> abusive? I personally don't think so. 

Leslie41:
But my point didn't involve Snape and whether or not he was abusive, 
because I don't agree he was.  My point was that, whatever the 
negative effects Snape's lessons might have had on Harry, the 
positive effects surpass them utterly.  And that doesn't even take 
into account the times Snape actively attempted to save Harry's 
life.  In those cases, of course, he didn't impart any learning to 
Harry that ended up helping.  He merely attempted to help Harry 
himself.    

> Alla:
> As I said, I think that in OOP Snape ate the fruits of his labor, 
> I think the fruits of his labor were Harry's mistrust, fear and 
> hate. 

> I cannot even consider this to be a positive effect.

Leslie41:
But of course part of Harry's mistrust, fear, and hate is a result 
of his prejudice against Snape.  I'm not saying that Snape doesn't 
do his share to engender Harry's antipathy, what I'm saying is that 
Harry's prejudice is against Snape is fostered by his godfather, and 
his own puffed-up notion of his dead dad, who actually was *not* a 
nice person at all, at least not at the age of 15. No doubt James 
Potter did strut after all.

Do you really think that Harry had the right to poke about in 
Snape's penseive the way he did?  A lot of what happens as a result 
can be traced directly back to that action. 

Harry never listens or trusts Dumbledore's position on Snape, or 
Lupin's, or even Hermione's.  He's bound and determined to hate 
Snape, even when Snape has attempted to save his life.  Harry has 
witnessed both his godfather and his father behaving quite cruelly 
and arrogantly towards Snape, viciously victimizing and most 
certainly abusing him, both physically and emotionally. But Harry 
doesn't gain a jot of pity for Snape as a result.  He seems to feel 
sorry for *himself* that his vision of his father and godfather has 
been besmirched.

Harry WANTS to hate Snape, not just because of what Snape does, but 
because it metaphorically joins him to his father and grandfather.  
He must hate Snape because they did, because he idealizes them. And 
I think that will be very significant in Book VII.     

Alla:

> Snape had been hammering into Harry's head how he is like gis 
> father, how bad of the person he is, how unjustified his celebrity 
> status, how bad his father was, etc.  

Leslie41:
Snape doesn't say Harry is a bad person.  Truthfully I think he 
would consider that irrelevant.  But he does say his celebrity 
status is unjustified.  Because, at least when he makes that remark, 
it is.  Harry has actually *done* nothing to merit such attention. 
Nothing of his own will, anyway.  Snape does attack the memory of 
James Potter.  James was not a nice person, obviously.  Not a-tall.  
Both Sirius and James were intolerably arrogant.  

I don't think Snape is right about imparting the sins of the father 
onto the son. But there is a lot of wrong to be handed out on both 
sides.  Harry is not an innocent with regard to his relationship 
with Snape.