Abuse, etc., was Snape, Apologies, and and Redemption--Lupin vs. DD

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 152573

> Leslie41:
> But you're judging whether or not there was abuse on the basis of 
> whether or not abuse is perceived, not whether or not it actually 
> occurred.  
<SNIP>

Alla:

Sure, I was just responding to your RL example, which I have no 
knowledge of and not the best qualified to judge, since I did not 
witness.

But I definitely believe that I AM qualified to judge the EVENTS 
which occur in canon, Snape acts, which do not change regardless of 
who describes them.



> Leslie41:
> Hey, I'm the last person to support Snape as a model of an 
> emotionally healthy, self-actualized adult.  But I don't think 
he's 
> abusive, and I would argue that his effect on Harry has been more 
> positive than negative, especially when you consider what Snape, 
> (esp. as the HBP) has taught him.
> 
> No bezoar, Ron *dies*.  That's a fact.  The HBP taught Harry how 
to 
> save his best friend.  And that's just one example (albeit the 
most 
> potent one I think). One would be hard pressed to come up with a 
> similar example from any one of the other "good" teachers.        

Alla:

Harry did not learn about bezoar on Snape's lessons. Harry did not 
learn about it while listening to Snape's insults. He read about it 
in the book. Does the fact that Snape wrote such a book somehow 
makes him less abusive? I personally don't think so. But that is IMO 
of course.

As I said, I think that in OOP Snape ate the fruits of his labor, I 
think the fruits of his labor were Harry's mistrust, fear and hate. 
I cannot even consider this to be a positive effect.

And that IMO started with "Mr. Potter, our new celebrity". For five 
years Snape had been hammering into Harry's head how he is like gis 
father, how bad of the person he is, how unjustified his celebrity 
status, how bad his father was, etc.  Since it ended with OOP 
disaster, I think that the effect Snape had on Harry was very clear. 
IMO of course.

> > Alla:
<SNIP>
> > Surely you agree that TAKING AWAY student's self-esteem is NOT a 
> > purpose of education?
> 
> Leslie41:
> Actually, often it is, if that self-esteem is unjustified.  If a 
> student is unjustifiably convinced of the worth of their work, it 
is 
> my job to deprive them of that 'self-esteem'.

Alla:

Certainly this was not self-esteem I was talking about. I was 
talking about giving student a zero, when his potion was better then 
others, destroying student's potion "accidentally", becoming another 
student's boggart.

Oh, and of course since Harry got an "Exceeds expectations" when 
Snape was not judging an exam, I am taking ANY Snape's evaluations 
of Harry as bad potion master with BIG grain of salt.

IMO,

Alla, who SO wants Snape to suffer in book 7 and that is  even 
though he deserves do die in my book, prefers him to be alive at the 
end.