Defense of Snape in POA. Was:Re: Snape, Apologies, and Redemption

[leslie41]

No: HPFGUIDX 152593

> > Leslie41:
> > Lupin refuses to participate.  Not only that, he's closed 
> > himself off and does not want to be a part of any of what James 
> > and Sirius are doing at all.  He doesn't even want to see it.  
> > And behind that book, he is frowning.  He hates what his friends 
> > are doing to Snape.  It's Wormtail who is anticipating and 
> > enjoying what his friends are about to do.  Not Lupin.    
> 
> Lanval:
> Frankly, I think  Lupin's attitude can be interpreted in a number 
> of ways. He clearly does not approve of what's going on, but the 
> frown might just as well be a kind of "don't-get-me-in-trouble-
> guys-you-know-as-prefect-I-shouldn't-let-this happen..." reaction. 
> Personally I've never seen this as a sign of deep sympathy for 
> Snape. Let's remember Snape was spying on Lupin and his friends. 
> Why would Lupin have any sort of friendly feelings for a boy who 
> might destroy what little future he had?

Leslie41:

It's not so much a matter of Lupin having "friendly" feelings for 
Snape, as much as him really hating the fact that his friends are so 
malicious.  For example, it's not evident that Lily likes Snape.  
She tells James "you're as bad as he is."  But she doesn't like the 
fact that James is such a nasty piece of business.  That he picks on 
people just because he can (this is her interpretation, with which I 
agree).  She would defend anyone in that situation.  As Lupin would 
be bothered no matter who was being turned upside down.

> > Leslie41:
> > That may be very correct, if what we're talking about are 
> > Snape's actions as a Death Eater.  But we really don't know 
> > exactly what he did when he was amongst Voldemort's willing 
> > minions.  Or what he's done as a spy.
> 
> Lanval:
> But we DO know quite well what the Death Eaters were up to at the 
> time. They were going around murdering and torturing. We DO know 
> what happened to those like Regulus Black, who refused to do 
> Voldemort's bidding. And we DO know that Snape joined the DE's, of 
> his own free will. So why not talk about it? 

Leslie41:
Well, okay.  But we don't know exactly what he did, so it's hard 
to.  Murder?  Maybe.  But it isn't stated.  Torture?  Ditto.  I'm 
not trying to defend the fact that Snape was a Death Eater.  I just 
don't know precisely what he did.  We know about many murders 
committed by Voldemort's followers.  Some of them have have been 
blatantly described to us.  Voldemort, Bellatrix, Pettigrew, etc.  
Snape's position as a D.E. is left just a bit vague, I think 
purposefully.

> Lupinlore was, I believe, talking specifically about Snape needing 
> to be punished for abuse of children, but if we're going to bring 
> Sirius into the discussion (on a charge completely unrelated to 
> the subject of child abuse), then I think we should not just sweep 
> Snape's Death Eater days under the table and say, oh well, we 
> don't know what went on there, so we'll just disregard it. 

Leslie41:
I'm not saying we should disregard it at all, but that wasn't the 
way the discussion was heading.  I am a person who thinks that Snape 
is Dumbledore's man.  Snape was in the Death Eaters, did damage 
therein (some of it made plain to us, some not, etc.), but according 
to Dumbledore repented of his former actions, and has repeatedly 
risked his life and sacrificed much for the side of good, including 
saving Harry's life.  The problem as I see it with Sirius Black is 
that he never repented of his actions, and stubbornly maintained 
that Snape 'deserved' what Sirius doled out.      

 
> Lanval:
> 
> Sirius Black is not guilty of attempted murder. He's guilty of 
> telling a nosy kid, who had a mind to get four other boys 
> expelled, the way into a secret passage. It was Snape's own 
> decision to enter.

Leslie41:
I predict many detectives and lawsuits in your future.
 
> What business did Snape have spying on Lupin, when he knew that 
> Dumbledore must have sanctioned whatever went on? 

Leslie41:
None.  Doesn't mean you want to go and deliberately get the guy 
killed.  As for the spying part, well Harry Potter himself bears a 
striking resemblence to Snape regarding his investigation into areas 
that bear Dumbledore's sanction.

> To me, (as to Alla, who explains it so much better in her post) 
> Dumbledore's remark about his memory being as good as ever 
> indicates that Snape's role might not simply have been that of 
> Innocent Little Lamb, tricked into the lion's ..er, wolf's den, by 
> the Evil Sirius Black. 

Leslie41:
Oh, I don't think Snape is innocent by any means.  And I don't think 
Black is evil.  I *like* Sirius Black.  As I said in a previous 
post, I tend to give all the characters a good deal of slack. My 
point is that people seem very willing to indict Snape for his 
behaviors (or even *invent* nasty things he's done), when other 
characters do things that are just as, or far more blameworthy.  But 
(IMHO) because those other characters are charismatic, or handsome, 
or well-liked, they don't seem to have to bear the responsibility or 
the blame for their actions the way Snape does.  They're given 
a "pass".  Not fair.  Just not fair.  

> And while we're talking Sirius and Snape, and compare accumulated 
> sins, we should remember that Snape really DID try to have Sirius  
> (and possibly Lupin!) killed at the end of POA -- worse, Kissed by 
> a Dementor -- without a trial, without listening to the evidence. 

Leslie41:
Go back and read POA very carefully, paying very close attention to 
what Snape hears and what he doesn't, when he's unconscious and when 
he's awake.  Rowling does, that's for sure.  

As for Lupin, Snape certainly is under the impression that the 
werewolf is in cahoots with Black, but that's the exact impression 
that Harry and Hermione came to as well, if you recall.  And he 
doesn't harm Lupin.  He merely binds him.    

As for Black, if Snape had wanted to kill him he could have.  "Give 
me a reason," he says.  But the only reason he really needs is that 
Sirius Black, escapee from Azkaban, is standing right in front of 
him. He would have been praised as a great hero.  But he doesn't 
kill him.
 
As for Snape and the dementors, since when is it up to Snape who 
gets kissed? I'm not saying he wouldn't have been pleased with the 
result, of course, but Snape's not the one controlling the 
dementors, or doling out Black's punishment either.  That punishment 
was set already, and not by Snape.     

So, in light of everything, what reason would Snape have had to 
trust Black, or spare him, even if he hadn't been tormented by him 
as a boy?  Harry's suggestion?  Not good enough, especially since, 
if you recall, Snape was listening under the invisibility cloak 
while Black told Lupin that Snape nearly getting killed "served him 
right".  No wonder Snape seems beyond reason.  

Snape seems to think as well that he's saved the students, and 
truthfully, why shouldn't he?  There's Sirius Black, known murderer, 
and his old cohort, who knew he was an animagus and didn't tell 
anyone.  I know what *I* would have thought. Meanwhile, Harry is 
berating Snape and bringing up how Snape had been "made a fool of" 
at school, instead of thanking Snape for saving his life.

Now, I'm not saying Snape is right about the situation.  He's not.  
What I'm saying is that he has come to the same conclusion any sane 
person would have come to (including the trio), and that his intent 
is to spare the children and to capture the wrongdoers.

After that, Snape is unconscious.  He doesn't hear a whit of Black's 
impassioned defense to Harry's interrogation.  Doesn't see Pettigrew 
transform.  He's not a witness to any of that.  All he heard and saw 
was an old nemesis, wanted for murder, who still wasn't sorry he'd 
tried to kill him.     

But yet, in all that, everyone still seems to think Snape behaved 
terribly, that he "didn't listen to the evidence".  It wasn't his 
job to listen to the evidence, first of all.  And the trial had 
already taken place.  Sirius Black was a condemned murderer.  It was 
Snape's job to capture him. ("How I hoped I would be the one to 
*catch* you") he says.  Second of all, when the evidence for Black's 
innocence is revealed, Snape doesn't hear it because he's 
unconscious.  So what, pray tell, did he do that was so wrong?   

> Even after he is told that Sirius is innocent, he throws a spittle-
> flying tantrum for not getting his way...what reason would he have 
> to doubt Dumbledore?

Leslie41:

At this point, Dumbledore never even attempts to tell Snape that 
Black is innocent.  What Dumbledore, in fact, tells Harry and 
Hermione is that "there is not a shred of proof to support Black's 
story," admitting as well that "the word of two thirteen-year-old 
wizards will not convince anybody". No one, NO ONE is going to be 
inclined to believe Harry and Hermione.  At this point, why should 
Snape?

Much later, in OotP, Snape has obviously been briefed on Black's 
innocence and accepts it, even to the point of shaking hands with 
him. 


Leslie41, who must go to bed now, but is neverendingly fascinated by 
the fact that any of us seem to believe an awful lot of nasty things 
about Snape that just aren't true, when we actually examine the 
situations involved.