Defense of Snape in POA. Was:Re: Snape, Apologies, and Redemption

[leslie41]

No: HPFGUIDX 152621

> Ceridwen:
> Then you are taking the extreme position here in order to argue 
> and expose various points?  

In a manner of speaking, I guess.  I teach argument for a living.  
And my own position is not as polarized as one might think. Your 
argument about Sirius and his role in the prank is very plausible, I 
think.  "Attempted murder" may be too strong a term.  Perhaps
"attempted criminally negligent homicide?"  "Attempted 
manslaughter?"  However we might interpret the nature of 
the "crime", Sirius deliberately tried to put Snape in harm's way, 
harm that could have led to his death.  And Snape owes Potter 
a "life debt" as a result.   

> Lanval:
> I've seen people actually say that Lupin is the most culpable of 
> the four here, precisely because he realizes it's wrong and he 
> ought to speak up, both from his obligation as prefect, and from a 
> moral standpoint. I'm not sure what to argue against that, though 
> I don't fully agree -- yet there's a certain truth to it, and an
> inconvenient one at that. 

Leslie41:
That's an interesting perspective.  Lupin should have spoken up and 
I think he knows it.  But as Rowling says, he desperately wants to 
be liked.  Lupin also, with regard to Black's status as an animagus, 
calls himself a "coward".  But who of us cannot sympathize with him 
and with his reasons?  

> > Leslie41:
> > As for the spying part, well Harry Potter himself bears a
> > striking resemblence to Snape regarding his investigation into
> > areas that bear Dumbledore's sanction.


> Lanval:
> Harry's breaking of the rules does not excuse Snape. But if we're
> going to bring Harry into it... I would argue that Harry must break
> a lot of rules for the simple reason of keeping the plot
> interesting. 

Leslie41:  
"Keeping the plot interesting" does not constitute a defense of the 
character's actions morally.  It's a cop out.

> Lanval:
> Snape seems to me, in online fandom at least, the absolute King of 
> Excused, Defended, and Unfairly Praised characters. Sirius on the 
> other hand appears to be catching huge amounts of flak, mostly 
> from Snape fans. 

Leslie41:
Well, as I believe there is ample evidence that Snape is DDM, I 
would say that what Snape is doing as a double agent is arguably the 
most dangerous and demanding job possible.  Not to mention his 
repeated healing of DD, saving of Harry, etc. etc. etc.  How is, 
then, praise of him "unfair?"  Black doesn't do nearly as much for 
the Order, for DD, or for Harry for that matter.  

As for "excusing" his time as a Death Eater, I don't "excuse" it.  I 
note, however, that his time there was brief, and that he has, 
according to DD, sorely repented of it. Repented not only in word, 
but in action, by serving in the order and spying on Voldemort. When 
DD says "Snape is no more a Death Eater than I am," I believe him.  

I don't have any precise antipathy towards Black, and don't intend 
to give him "flack," but it seems to me that Snape Haters seem to 
like him quite a bit, and I don't think the facts support that 
assessment. 

> Lanval:
> I feel for teenage Snape. The Pensieve scene is very, very ugly. I
> just happened to listen to it on tape the other day, and was struck
> again by how nasty it was, somehow hearing it struck me as worse as
> when I first read it. But I refuse to condemn James, or Sirius, on
> this one twenty minute account.

Leslie41:
Well, it depends on what you want to condemn them of.  Certainly 
that's not the incident in which we can accuse Black of attempting 
to get Snape eaten by a werewolf.

But boy, those boys are nasty.  Mean and malicious and nasty, taking 
great pains to hunt down and publicly humiliate a fellow student 
who, at that point, is just keeping to himself.  

I would condemn James and Sirius for being arrogant, thieving, self-
important, malicious a-holes, whose great joy in life is taken in 
socially eviscerating the less popular and less attractive just 
because they CAN.

Did they stay that way?  Probably not.  Lily, who I have great 
respect for just on the basis of that scene, came around to falling 
in love with James, and I would think that it must have been he who 
changed, not her, because I find it hard to believe she would have 
married him if he didn't.  Sirius, of course, is broken by Azkaban, 
and he's lost his looks, but he's still got a strong streak of 
arrogance and meanness in him.  


> Lanval:
> if Harry, a thirteen year old child, can muster enough
> control over his emotions to allow the man he believes responsible
> for his parents' death to speak, and tell his side of the story,
> then so can Snape. But no, it was revenge and Order of Merlin all
> the way.

Leslie41:
And again, I remind you that Dumbledore himself said no one would 
listen to Harry, or believe him.  Snape only believed what any other 
wizard would have.  And did what any other wizard (save DD) would 
have done.  

I don't think we can condemn Snape for his reaction.  Harry deserves 
praise for his openmindedness, and it speaks extremely well of him.  
But it doesn't speak poorly of the rest of the wizarding world that 
they wouldn't have done the same.  *I* certainly wouldn't have.