Snape, Apologies, and Redemption--Lupin vs. DD

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 152654

> Leslie41:
> Well, as I believe there is ample evidence that Snape is DDM, I 
> would say that what Snape is doing as a double agent is arguably 
the 
> most dangerous and demanding job possible.  Not to mention his 
> repeated healing of DD, saving of Harry, etc. etc. etc.  How is, 
> then, praise of him "unfair?"  Black doesn't do nearly as much for 
> the Order, for DD, or for Harry for that matter.  

Lanval:

As for 'unfair praise': I mean certain arguments along the way 
of "Snape is only nasty to Harry because he has to make him strong; 
deep down he really loves him..."

My memory is unfortunatly not as good as Dumbledore's, but right now 
I remember Snape healing DD once in HBP, after the destruction of 
the ring horcrux. Was there another scene? As I said, I don't have 
the books around... 

The second scene I recall is the Astronomy Tower. DD indeed 'needed' 
Snape, but it would take some pretty dark humor to call what Snape 
did 'healing'.

His 'repeated saving' of Harry? Again, I remember one occasion. In 
PS/SS. Snape was muttering a counter-curse. On what other occasions 
does Snape save Harry's life? 

"etc. etc. etc"  Can you please explain? 

As to Sirius, well... Nah. He only returned from that tropical 
place, where he'd been enjoying the first bit of real freedom in 
thirteen years, to be near Harry, and eat rats in a cave (though in 
fairness it should be added that rats ARE edible).

Then he let the Order use his house, and agreed to stay locked up in 
that nasty, creepy dwelling full of bad memories, living with 
depression... because he felt that he might be of more use to his 
godson there, than in some tropical vacation spot, or Antarctica, 
or the Gobi desert.  

Next Harry got himself in trouble, and Sirius rushed off to save 
him. Sirius died in the fight.

You're right. No big deal. 





> Leslie41:
> Well, it depends on what you want to condemn them of.  Certainly 
> that's not the incident in which we can accuse Black of attempting 
> to get Snape eaten by a werewolf.
> 
> But boy, those boys are nasty.  Mean and malicious and nasty, 
taking 
> great pains to hunt down and publicly humiliate a fellow student 
> who, at that point, is just keeping to himself.  
> 

Lanval:
Yes and no. There's not much 'hunting down' involved, Snape sits 
down nearby. But overall, agreed.


>Leslie41:
> I would condemn James and Sirius for being arrogant, thieving, 
self-
> important, 

Lanval:
See, that's where you lose me. Arrogant, yes. Self-important, 
definitely. 

But 'thieving'?  Canon, please?

>Leslie41
>malicious a-holes, whose great joy in life is taken in 
> socially eviscerating the less popular and less attractive just 
> because they CAN.

Lanval:
And here your argument leaves Canonland forever, and floats off into 
the vast space of Creative Speculation. Canon, please, for Sirius 
and James' foremost joy in life being the social destruction of all 
the less popular and attractive? 

>Leslie41: 
> Did they stay that way?  Probably not.  Lily, who I have great 
> respect for just on the basis of that scene, came around to 
falling 
> in love with James, and I would think that it must have been he 
who 
> changed, not her, because I find it hard to believe she would have 
> married him if he didn't.  Sirius, of course, is broken by 
Azkaban, 
> and he's lost his looks, but he's still got a strong streak of 
> arrogance and meanness in him.  

Lanval:

Can you point me to where in canon Sirius, post-POA, displays strong 
meanness toward anyone but Snape (and, on one occasion to Harry)?


 
> Lanval:
>  
> > Big difference for me. Sirius only had to blurt 
> > out the instructions on how to get past the Whomping 
> > Willow, in a moment of utter frustration 
> [snip]
> > Snape on the other hand joined the DEs. That requires thought, 
> > intent, and conscious decision-making. 
> 
> houyhnhnm:
> 
> So, if I understand correctly, you are saying that you feel it is a
> combination of the degree of intention and the level of animosity 
that
> determines how much responsibility someone bears for the evil
> consequence of an action.

Lanval:
If you're asking, do I consider intent, malice aforethought, 
scheming, etc., to be important when assessing a deed that 
results/may have resulted in dire consequences? Er, yes. So does the 
court system where I live. They make some distinction between first 
and second degree murder, manslaughter, criminal negligence, 
accident, and so on.

> houyhnhnm:
> It may turn out to be the case that Rowling agrees with that, but I
> hope not, because I don't. To use a RL example, I don't see any
> difference in culpability between someone who thoughtlessly gets
> behind the wheel of a motor vehicle while drunk and kills someone, 
and
> one who kills out of rage.
> 

Lanval:
That's bit of a flawed example. The victim of a drunk driver doesn't 
have much of a choice. Snape HAD a choice. He could have stayed in 
his bed where he belonged.


houyhnhnm:
> I regard Snape as being responsible for the actions of LV and the
> Death Eaters, including the deaths of the Potters, whether he
> particapated in any of their murders or not. Simply by joining 
them,
> he gave them his sanction.
> 
Lanval:
Wow, you're harsher on him than I am. If we ever find out that Snape 
did not, in fact, participate personally in any torture or killing, 
then I will hold him less culpable than those who did, or those who 
ordered it. 



houyhnhnm:
> Sirius was not guilty of murder, only because James stepped in.  


Lanval:
Sirius was not guilty of 'murder', period. James or no James. 


houyhnhnm:
Nor
> were he, Lupin, James, or Peter guilty of the murder of innocent
> Hogwarts students, Hogsmeade inhabitants, or Muggles, while out on
> their monthly escapades, only because they were lucky.  Had Lupin
> gotten away from the others and killed someone, I would consider 
them
> all guilty.  

Lanval:
Of murder? All of them?

If something had happened to Harry and Draco in PS/SS on the night 
of their detention in the forest... would Hagrid be guilty of 
murder? It was, after all, a pretty stupid place to take kids for 
detention.

Are Crabbe and Goyle guilty of murder for helping Draco in HPB? Is 
Draco guilty of murdering DD, since his actions ultimately, and 
according to plan, led to the events on the tower?


houyhnhnm:
Lupin was certainly guilty of abandoning his duties as a
> prefect. They were all guilty of deceiving Dumbledore and putting
> others at great risk, of escalating the conflict between themselves
> and Snape, and possibly of pushing him into the arms of the Death 
Eaters.
>

Lanval:
No one pushed Snape. He became a DE because he WANTED to become a 
DE. He, and he alone, was ultimately responsible for that decision. 
Neville is bullied constantly by Snape and his grandmother, and has 
yet to show DE tendencies.


houyhnhnm:
> Snape is a sympathetic character for me, not because he is not
> responsible for what happened during VWI, but because he alone 
appears
> to own the responsibility for his actions.  The others never do.
>

Lanval:

Sirius accepts responsibility for James' and Lily's death, even 
though he did not betray them. Dumbledore freely accepts blame for 
several things. Lupin agrees that he's too dangerous and unreliable 
to teach at Hogwarts. That's just a few examples.

Snape? We hear from DD that he felt remorse, and switched sides. 
That's it. He tells Bellatrix that he "spun DD a tale of deepest 
remorse." What to believe?






> > Alla: 
> > Where does Snape own responsibility for his actions? Instead of 
> > going to Azkaban to pay his dues for his DE days, he gets a nice 
> > job of Hogwarts professor and Dumbledore's protection.
> 
> Leslie41:
> There is owning up to one's responsibility with words, and then 
> there is owning up to one's responsibility with *actions.*
> 
> Would *you* like to trade places with Snape, and be a double agent 
> and spy on Voldemort?  "Dumbledore's protection" indeed.  
> Dumbledore's the one who's sending him out to spy for the order, 
> often insisting that Snape do things he most obviously would 
rather 
> not do.  Name someone who has a more dangerous job.  Just one name 
> will do. 
>\

Lanval:
Remus Lupin? Emmeline Vance?

 
 

Leslie41:
> And just how did nasty, unapologetic Snape end up at the whomping 
> willow? Was he spying on Lupin, or looking for goods on Harry?  
No.  
> Snape, consistently responsible SNAPE, realizes that Lupin has 
> missed his wolfsbane.  Not only has he brewed it, he brings it to 
> Lupin personally to see to it he takes it.    
> 

Lanval:
Um, from what I remember, Snape brings Lupin the potion at an 
earlier time as well, and never loses a word about Lupin 'having 
forgotten to take it". Seems part of the arrangement, that Snape 
will deliver the potion when it's ready. 

(Does anyone truly believe that Snape brews this potion out of the 
goodness of his heart? Or could it be that DD asked/ordered him to 
do so?)

I also distinctly recall Snape gloating about how LUCKY he was to 
find Lupin gone -- and the map on the table. Lucky, because Snape 
understood what it meant. Lucky because it meant "two more for 
Azkaban tonight", maybe even for for a little Kiss.
 
Nope, Snape does not end up in the Shrieking Shack because he 
worries about dear Remus taking his potion. Nor is he there to 
protect Harry. His purpose is to catch Black and Lupin.

 


> 
> Leslie41:
> Ah, but that's a matter that's been hashed over many times, and 
it's 
> by no means clear that Snape is the bad guy.  Only Book VII will 
> tell.

Lanval:
And if he turns out to be DDM, that's fine with me. I'm still on the 
fence. But I'll never like the guy.