Snape, Apologies, and Redemption--Lupin vs. DD

[leslie41]

No: HPFGUIDX 152667


> Lanval:
> 
> As for 'unfair praise': I mean certain arguments along the way 
> of "Snape is only nasty to Harry because he has to make him strong; 
> deep down he really loves him..."

Leslie41:
Ooh, I would never say that.  I don't think that Snape likes Harry at 
all.  I would say that it is his intent to make him strong, but he 
doesn't do this out of affection for Harry.  Irene has made this 
point well with regard to Snape's brewing of the wolfsbane potion, 
and I think it applies here too.  

Snape is doing his duty, because it's the right thing to do.  
 
> Lanval:
> My memory is unfortunatly not as good as Dumbledore's, but right 
> now I remember Snape healing DD once in HBP, after the destruction 
> of the ring horcrux. Was there another scene? As I said, I don't 
> have the books around... 

Leslie41:
I find this response slightly humorous.  One time saving DD's life is 
apparently not enough for the Snape Haters.  How many times would 
be?  I'd cite them, but I doubt it would do any good.  Certainly I 
don't think it would change your opinion of Snape.    
 
> Lanval: 
> His 'repeated saving' of Harry? Again, I remember one occasion. In 
> PS/SS. Snape was muttering a counter-curse. On what other occasions 
> does Snape save Harry's life? 

Again, once is apparently not enough.  How many times would be?
 
> Lanval:
> As to Sirius, well... Nah. He only returned from that tropical 
> place, where he'd been enjoying the first bit of real freedom in 
> thirteen years, to be near Harry, and eat rats in a cave (though in 
> fairness it should be added that rats ARE edible).
> Then he let the Order use his house, and agreed to stay locked up 
> in that nasty, creepy dwelling full of bad memories, living with 
> depression... because he felt that he might be of more use to his 
> godson there, than in some tropical vacation spot, or Antarctica, 
> or the Gobi desert.  
> Next Harry got himself in trouble, and Sirius rushed off to save 
> him. Sirius died in the fight.
> 
> You're right. No big deal. 

Leslie41:

I never said that Sirius Black didn't do anything to help Harry.  I 
simply said Snape did *more*.
 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Leslie41:
> > Well, it depends on what you want to condemn them of.  Certainly 
> > that's not the incident in which we can accuse Black of 
attempting 
> > to get Snape eaten by a werewolf.
> > 
> > But boy, those boys are nasty.  Mean and malicious and nasty, 
> taking 
> > great pains to hunt down and publicly humiliate a fellow student 
> > who, at that point, is just keeping to himself.  
> > 
> 
> Lanval:
> Yes and no. There's not much 'hunting down' involved, Snape sits 
> down nearby. But overall, agreed.
> 
> 
> >Leslie41:
> > I would condemn James and Sirius for being arrogant, thieving, 
> self-
> > important, 
> 
> Lanval:
> See, that's where you lose me. Arrogant, yes. Self-important, 
> definitely. 
> 
> But 'thieving'?  Canon, please?
> 
> >Leslie41
> >malicious a-holes, whose great joy in life is taken in 
> > socially eviscerating the less popular and less attractive just 
> > because they CAN.
> 
> Lanval:
> And here your argument leaves Canonland forever, and floats off 
into 
> the vast space of Creative Speculation. Canon, please, for Sirius 
> and James' foremost joy in life being the social destruction of all 
> the less popular and attractive? 
> 
> >Leslie41: 
> > Did they stay that way?  Probably not.  Lily, who I have great 
> > respect for just on the basis of that scene, came around to 
> falling 
> > in love with James, and I would think that it must have been he 
> who 
> > changed, not her, because I find it hard to believe she would 
have 
> > married him if he didn't.  Sirius, of course, is broken by 
> Azkaban, 
> > and he's lost his looks, but he's still got a strong streak of 
> > arrogance and meanness in him.  
> 
> Lanval:
> 
> Can you point me to where in canon Sirius, post-POA, displays 
strong 
> meanness toward anyone but Snape (and, on one occasion to Harry)?
> 
> 
>  
> > Lanval:
> >  
> > > Big difference for me. Sirius only had to blurt 
> > > out the instructions on how to get past the Whomping 
> > > Willow, in a moment of utter frustration 
> > [snip]
> > > Snape on the other hand joined the DEs. That requires thought, 
> > > intent, and conscious decision-making. 
> > 
> > houyhnhnm:
> > 
> > So, if I understand correctly, you are saying that you feel it is 
a
> > combination of the degree of intention and the level of animosity 
> that
> > determines how much responsibility someone bears for the evil
> > consequence of an action.
> 
> Lanval:
> If you're asking, do I consider intent, malice aforethought, 
> scheming, etc., to be important when assessing a deed that 
> results/may have resulted in dire consequences? Er, yes. So does 
the 
> court system where I live. They make some distinction between first 
> and second degree murder, manslaughter, criminal negligence, 
> accident, and so on.
> 
> > houyhnhnm:
> > It may turn out to be the case that Rowling agrees with that, but 
I
> > hope not, because I don't. To use a RL example, I don't see any
> > difference in culpability between someone who thoughtlessly gets
> > behind the wheel of a motor vehicle while drunk and kills 
someone, 
> and
> > one who kills out of rage.
> > 
> 
> Lanval:
> That's bit of a flawed example. The victim of a drunk driver 
doesn't 
> have much of a choice. Snape HAD a choice. He could have stayed in 
> his bed where he belonged.
> 
> 
> houyhnhnm:
> > I regard Snape as being responsible for the actions of LV and the
> > Death Eaters, including the deaths of the Potters, whether he
> > particapated in any of their murders or not. Simply by joining 
> them,
> > he gave them his sanction.
> > 
> Lanval:
> Wow, you're harsher on him than I am. If we ever find out that 
Snape 
> did not, in fact, participate personally in any torture or killing, 
> then I will hold him less culpable than those who did, or those who 
> ordered it. 
> 
> 
> 
> houyhnhnm:
> > Sirius was not guilty of murder, only because James stepped in.  
> 
> 
> Lanval:
> Sirius was not guilty of 'murder', period. James or no James. 
> 
> 
> houyhnhnm:
> Nor
> > were he, Lupin, James, or Peter guilty of the murder of innocent
> > Hogwarts students, Hogsmeade inhabitants, or Muggles, while out on
> > their monthly escapades, only because they were lucky.  Had Lupin
> > gotten away from the others and killed someone, I would consider 
> them
> > all guilty.  
> 
> Lanval:
> Of murder? All of them?
> 
> If something had happened to Harry and Draco in PS/SS on the night 
> of their detention in the forest... would Hagrid be guilty of 
> murder? It was, after all, a pretty stupid place to take kids for 
> detention.
> 
> Are Crabbe and Goyle guilty of murder for helping Draco in HPB? Is 
> Draco guilty of murdering DD, since his actions ultimately, and 
> according to plan, led to the events on the tower?
> 
> 
> houyhnhnm:
> Lupin was certainly guilty of abandoning his duties as a
> > prefect. They were all guilty of deceiving Dumbledore and putting
> > others at great risk, of escalating the conflict between 
themselves
> > and Snape, and possibly of pushing him into the arms of the Death 
> Eaters.
> >
> 
> Lanval:
> No one pushed Snape. He became a DE because he WANTED to become a 
> DE. He, and he alone, was ultimately responsible for that decision. 
> Neville is bullied constantly by Snape and his grandmother, and has 
> yet to show DE tendencies.
> 
> 
> houyhnhnm:
> > Snape is a sympathetic character for me, not because he is not
> > responsible for what happened during VWI, but because he alone 
> appears
> > to own the responsibility for his actions.  The others never do.
> >
> 
> Lanval:
> 
> Sirius accepts responsibility for James' and Lily's death, even 
> though he did not betray them. Dumbledore freely accepts blame for 
> several things. Lupin agrees that he's too dangerous and unreliable 
> to teach at Hogwarts. That's just a few examples.
> 
> Snape? We hear from DD that he felt remorse, and switched sides. 
> That's it. He tells Bellatrix that he "spun DD a tale of deepest 
> remorse." What to believe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > > Alla: 
> > > Where does Snape own responsibility for his actions? Instead of 
> > > going to Azkaban to pay his dues for his DE days, he gets a 
nice 
> > > job of Hogwarts professor and Dumbledore's protection.
> > 
> > Leslie41:
> > There is owning up to one's responsibility with words, and then 
> > there is owning up to one's responsibility with *actions.*
> > 
> > Would *you* like to trade places with Snape, and be a double 
agent 
> > and spy on Voldemort?  "Dumbledore's protection" indeed.  
> > Dumbledore's the one who's sending him out to spy for the order, 
> > often insisting that Snape do things he most obviously would 
> rather 
> > not do.  Name someone who has a more dangerous job.  Just one 
name 
> > will do. 
> >\
> 
> Lanval:
> Remus Lupin? Emmeline Vance?
> 
>  
>  
> 
> Leslie41:
> > And just how did nasty, unapologetic Snape end up at the whomping 
> > willow? Was he spying on Lupin, or looking for goods on Harry?  
> No.  
> > Snape, consistently responsible SNAPE, realizes that Lupin has 
> > missed his wolfsbane.  Not only has he brewed it, he brings it to 
> > Lupin personally to see to it he takes it.    
> > 
> 
> Lanval:
> Um, from what I remember, Snape brings Lupin the potion at an 
> earlier time as well, and never loses a word about Lupin 'having 
> forgotten to take it". Seems part of the arrangement, that Snape 
> will deliver the potion when it's ready. 
> 
> (Does anyone truly believe that Snape brews this potion out of the 
> goodness of his heart? Or could it be that DD asked/ordered him to 
> do so?)
> 
> I also distinctly recall Snape gloating about how LUCKY he was to 
> find Lupin gone -- and the map on the table. Lucky, because Snape 
> understood what it meant. Lucky because it meant "two more for 
> Azkaban tonight", maybe even for for a little Kiss.
>  
> Nope, Snape does not end up in the Shrieking Shack because he 
> worries about dear Remus taking his potion. Nor is he there to 
> protect Harry. His purpose is to catch Black and Lupin.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> > 
> > Leslie41:
> > Ah, but that's a matter that's been hashed over many times, and 
> it's 
> > by no means clear that Snape is the bad guy.  Only Book VII will 
> > tell.
> 
> Lanval:
> And if he turns out to be DDM, that's fine with me. I'm still on 
the 
> fence. But I'll never like the guy.
>