Snape, Apologies, and Redemption--Lupin vs. DD

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 152679

> > Lanval:
> > 
> > As for 'unfair praise': I mean certain arguments along the way 
> > of "Snape is only nasty to Harry because he has to make him 
strong; 
> > deep down he really loves him..."
> 
> Leslie41:
> Ooh, I would never say that.  I don't think that Snape likes Harry 
at 
> all.  I would say that it is his intent to make him strong, but he 
> doesn't do this out of affection for Harry.  Irene has made this 
> point well with regard to Snape's brewing of the wolfsbane potion, 
> and I think it applies here too.  
> 
> Snape is doing his duty, because it's the right thing to do.  
>

Lanval: 
I should have added that I hadn't seen that particular argument on 
this list -- I was thinking of online Potter Fandom in general. A 
scary place. This group is very sane and civilized by comparison. :)

  
> > Lanval: 
> > His 'repeated saving' of Harry? Again, I remember one occasion. 
In 
> > PS/SS. Snape was muttering a counter-curse. On what other 
occasions 
> > does Snape save Harry's life? 
>Leslie_41: 
> Again, once is apparently not enough.  How many times would be?


Lanval:
Well, see, I'm a bit nitpicky that way. When people claim that 
Snape 'repeatedly' saves Harry's and DD's life, then no -- once is 
not enough. 

And I don't really think of myself as a Snape Hater (though everyone 
is free to call me that, of course...*g*). I merely dislike him. And 
I'm 
unhappy with a certain part of fandom that gives Snape a pass where 
he doesn't deserve it.

> Leslie41:
> 
> I never said that Sirius Black didn't do anything to help Harry.  I 
> simply said Snape did *more*.
 
Lanval:
I see we're going to have to disagree on that. 

However, just for fun, let's for a moment play alternate universe and 
imagine the following scenario:

Sirius follows orders, and obediently stays behind at Grimmauld 
place, instead of going to the MoM -- but Snape goes, and dies 
fighting Bellatrix.

Enter a hapless fan, claiming that "Snape could have done more for 
Harry".

Oh dear. Oh my.

Now, there's of course still the possibility in the future that Snape 
WILL die for Harry. I'll be admitting then that Snape did as much as 
Sirius. 

> > 
> > Lanval:
> > See, that's where you lose me. Arrogant, yes. Self-important, 
> > definitely. 
> > 
> > But 'thieving'?  Canon, please?
> 
> Leslie41:
> The Snitch James is playing with--showing off with to be more 
precise-
> -is stolen.  When asked where he got it (by Sirius), James says 
> he "nicked it".  If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), this is British 
> idiom for "taken without permission".  Stolen.  Granted, it's not a 
> mammoth theft.  James, like the Weasley Twins, is only a petty 
> thief.  But it's definitely canon.
> 

Lanval:
Still, a bit harsh to say this makes him a "thieving a-hole". But 
accepted. Doesn't apply to Sirius though.


 
> > > Leslie41
> > > malicious a-holes, whose great joy in life is taken in 
> > > socially eviscerating the less popular and less attractive just 
> > > because they CAN.
> > 
> > Lanval:
> > And here your argument leaves Canonland forever, and floats off 
> > into the vast space of Creative Speculation. Canon, please, for 
> > Sirius and James' foremost joy in life being the social 
destruction 
> > of all the less popular and attractive? 
> 
> Leslie41:
> Well, Lily seems to think so.  When she upbraids the pair she's not 
> just referring to Snape, I think.  This is what she says to James 
> before she stalks off:
> 
> 'Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like 
> you've just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid 
> Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you 
just 
> because you can - I'm surprised your broomstick can get off the 
> ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK.'
> 
> The "anyone who annoys you just because you can" seems to me to 
> indicate that Snape is not the only victim of James Potter's 
abuse.   
> The haphazard way in which Sirius and James end up violating Snape 
in 
> this chapter (because he's there and because he exists--by James' 
own 
> admission) makes me think that he just happens to be the most 
obvious 
> target here.  They'd prefer to bother Snape.  But if it's not Snape 
> it's going to be someone else.  Lily knows this.  James Potter and 
> Sirius Black are that particular brand of high school social 
predator 
> that many of us dreaded, or hated.  The weaker among us admired 
> them.  The strongest among us confronted them.  Lily is my hero.  
> 
> My argument is strongly supported by canon, not "speculative" at 
all. 


Lanval:

If you want to equal "hexing anyone who annoys you" with "social 
evisceration of the weak, the ugly and the unpopular" then, yeah, I 
guess it's supported. Personally, I see a world of difference.

And I tend to be very wary of this kind of exaggeration. There's so 
much of it out in Fandom. Like those who firmly believe that the 
Marauders gang-raped Snape on a regular basis...




> > Lanval:
> > Can you point me to where in canon Sirius, post-POA, displays 
> > strong meanness toward anyone but Snape (and, on one occasion to 
> > Harry)?
> 
> Leslie41:
> Kreacher.  Dumbledore even comments on Sirius' nastiness towards 
him, 
> and suggests it's unwarranted.


Lanval:
Yes. I'd forgotten about him. But if that nasty little sh*t had 
called me all those names, and insulted every single one of my 
friends the way Kreacher does, then I'd probably have drowned him in 
a bathtub. Just kidding, of course. But I can't blame Sirius for his 
attitude towards Kreacher. It wasn't smart, but it was 
understandable. One hardly needs to have a "mean streak" to get 
crotchety with that particular elf.