CHAPDISC: HBP16, A Very Frosty Christmas

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 152824

SSSusan's QUESTIONS:
> 1.  Why the heck does Harry never look anything up?  Clearly, he's 
> curious about the Unbreakable Vow.  Why not grab a book?  Why not 
ask 
> the librarian?

Ceridwen:
Harry's not the type to drag out a book and look it up.  It's easier 
to ask Hermione.  In this case, I don't even think Harry's too 
worried about what an Unbreakable Vow is.  He mentions it to Ron, if 
I recall correctly, and Ron just tells him about his near-brush with 
Twinly death.  I'm not saying that Harry isn't curious.  I don't 
think he's curious about the UV.

> 2.  So what's your best guess of what the twins' attempted 
> Unbreakable Vow was all about?  What do you think they tried to get 
> Ron to do?  Do you think they understood exactly what they were 
> doing?  How do you image these youngsters (they'd have been about 
7) 
> would've learned about UVs?

Ceridwen:
I think the twins were trying to get Ron to promise to do something 
that would ultimately be dangerous for him.  At seven, they may not 
have grasped the idea that funny is not always safe.

I think they grasped the basic idea of a vow, yes.  But I don't think 
they grasped the details of this one.  They probably heard about it 
when someone talked about it on the wireless (a WW soap opera, 
perhaps?), or overheard their parents talking about it either between 
themselves, or with guests.

> 3.  Is it significant that Ginny has told Fred & George about Ron & 
> Lav-Lav, given the "encounter" with Ron when he happened upon her & 
> Dean snogging?  Do you think she's always talked about Ron to F&G? 
Do 
> you think she was hoping they'd transfer their "nosing in" to Ron's 
> love life from hers?

Ceridwen:
So many possibilities!  Can I just say 'yes'?  I think she wanted to 
get back at him and give him a taste of his own medicine.  I think 
she told F&G specifically because they are in the same position to 
Ron as Ron is to Ginny - the children just ahead of him, who were 
probably told to look after little bro when they played, and when he 
started Hogwarts.  In this capacity, I wouldn't be surprised if Ginny 
did talk to them about Ron quite a bit.

Ginny may also have been setting them on Ron's scent so they wouldn't 
start worrying after her and her love life as they did during the 
summer.  

> 4. Fred waits to call Percy a prat until after Molly has left the 
> kitchen.  Does this show there is a side to him which cares about 
> others' feelings?  Or does he simply fear the Wrath of Molly?

Ceridwen:
Yes again.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  Of course the twins 
care about their mother.  That doesn't mean they want to tempt her 
wrath!  Fred not only played nice, but he played safe here as well.

> 5.  What do you think of Harry's pronouncement that he's going to 
> tell DD and anyone who can help about Snape's offer to help Draco?  
> Does this signal a change in Harry re: turning to others, relying 
> upon others more?

Ceridwen:
I think it does signal a change.  Harry has been growing up through 
the series.  This is another example.

> 6.  When Ron says that DD & his dad are likely to protest that 
Snape 
> is not really intending to help Draco but is only trying to get 
> information from him, Harry says, "They didn't hear him.  No one's 
> that good an actor, not even Snape."  Contrast this with Snape's 
> statement to Draco:  "Where do you think I would have been all 
these 
> years, if I had not known how to act?"  It seems to me that this is 
> the crux of the Harry-Snape "problem" and the "problem" for the 
> fandom in trying to figure out Severus Snape.  *Is* he acting?  
When 
> is he acting and when is he not?  How good an actor is he?  Is 
Harry 
> correct that "even Snape" is not that good an actor?

Ceridwen:
'How to act' doesn't necessarily mean acting, as in becoming a 
different character.  Substitute 'behave'.  Draco is being sullen and 
surly and confrontational.  I think Snape is reminding him (sullenly 
and surlily - is there such a word?) that one catches more flies with 
honey than with vinegar.

But, at some point, Snape does have to act.  When that is, is one of 
the bigger mysteries of the series, I think.  Is he acting with DD or 
with LV?  Or with both?  In any event, he's a pretty good actor.  
He's still alive and walking free.

> 8.  Comments on the "gnome angel"?  Yet another hilarious stunt by 
> the twins, or yet another sign that the twins lack a conscience 
> and/or are cruel?

Ceridwen:
Yet another hillarious, cruel stunt by the twins.  But then, I 
wouldn't want the pest in my house at all, stunned or not.  I mean, 
what if it got unstunned and started biting people?

Yes.  I worry about things like that.

> 9.  Many people fault Molly (or Molly & Ginny) for not being warm 
and 
> welcoming with Fleur.  Is there anyone who, to the contrary, finds 
> Fleur's behavior in the Christmas Eve scene to be rude ["Eez eet 
> over?  Thank goodness, what an `orrible--"]?  Or should Molly not 
> have subjected everyone to Celestina Warbeck in the first place?

Ceridwen:
I'm one of the ones who fault Molly for not being a better hostess.  
But by Christmas, I think the situation is out of hand.  Who dreamed 
up having two opinionated women sharing the same house for a year or 
so?  The Three Day rule applies here:  Guests are like fish - after 
three days, they begin to stink.

In this case, Fleur is in the wrong.  If she doesn't like the music, 
take Bill somewhere private and snog.  Preferably, rent a room and 
get out of there for a while.  Or, stun Bill and put him alongside 
the angelic gnome, since I get the feeling all of this wonderful 
togetherness was his idea.

> 10.  The scene with Harry, Arthur & Lupin is one which, when we 
look 
> back upon it, is clearly setting us up for the tower scene.  It is 
> filled with the kinds of remarks and statements which feel 
> like "great pronouncements" or "truths" or "key insights,"  such 
> as "It comes down to whether you trust DD's judgment" and "But 
> Dumbledore can make mistakes" and "You are determined to hate him, 
> Harry" and "Has it occurred to you, Harry, that Snape was simply 
> pretending—?"  Play those lines off one another, and you pretty 
much 
> have the DDM!Snape and ESE!Snape camps after the tower scene, no?  
> (As well as the "DD could NEVER have been that wrong about Snape" 
> vs. "DD can make BIG mistakes" camps.)  Comments?  Additionally, 
> Lupin makes some remarks here about Snape which surprised some 
fans. 
> Was he speaking what he truly believed?  Did you believe him?

Ceridwen:
I think Lupin is speaking from a different place than Harry has ever 
been.  Lupin's been living as a spy since the summer, he probably has 
an appreciation of Snape's position now that he didn't have before.

It seemed to me that Lupin was singularily emotionless when he said 
that.  He seems tired in this scene.  He smiles with a little too 
much understanding later on.  He defers to Dumbledore when he would 
have been more understanding of Harry's position before.  Some people 
have suggested that Lupin knows Occlumency, or at least Legilimency.  
I think this scene could point to him knowing Occlumency, and being 
still partially in the Occlumency loop like Snape is, only Lupin-
style.

> 11.  It is clear, to Lupin anyway, that Harry is *hoping* that the 
> HBP is his father.  This is reinforced by the fact that Harry is 
> disappointed when he checks the book's date and sees it's too old 
to 
> have been his dad's era.  Harry has also previously stated that the 
> HBP is a better potions teacher than Snape.  Why does Harry like 
the 
> HBP so much, and why does he *want* him to be his father?  And what 
> does all this say about Harry and Snape?  Has something changed in 
> Snape, to have made him truly a lesser teacher now than then?  Or 
is 
> it simply the removal, for Harry, of Snape the person and their 
> unpleasant history from the mix, so that he's seeing "pure 
teaching" 
> in the book and not the personality of the teacher?

Ceridwen:
Harry wants to know and like his father.  Understandable.  The HBP 
has a certain sense of humor that another schoolboy might like (shove 
a bezoar down their throats), irreverant and witty.

The reality might not be as great as the reading, though.  I wonder 
if the entire scene with Remus Lupin isn't an answer in some parts to 
fans and our speculation.  Do we agree with Dumbledore, or not?  A 
sarcastic friend is great at parties, until the wit is turned against 
oneself.

The Prince isn't teaching in the book, he's making notes for 
himself.  I don't think Snape would have taken on teaching if he had 
any other option, at least not at this level where many of his 
students are only taking his subject because it's required.  His 
notes are his own, so he isn't stressed about the reader 
understanding them or appreciating them.

> 12. Why would werewolves have a better life under Voldemort?

Ceridwen:
I don't know if they would.  But there are times when any sort of 
change must seem better than what they have now.

> 13.  Are you surprised Molly falls for the story that Percy 
couldn't 
> stand to not see his family since they were in the neighborhood?  
Why 
> or why not?

Ceridwen:
Not surprised.  I wouldn't be surprised if Percy did want to see his 
family, only not under those circumstances.  It's obvious that 
Scrimgeour only uses Percy to get into the Weasley house to speak to 
Harry.  I don't think Percy likes it.  I think he knows what it must 
say about him, bringing an outsider in who only wants to take 
advantage.  He's stiff, he strikes out across the yard in front of 
Scrimgeour as if to distance himself from the inevitable.  He could 
be read as not wanting to be there, but I really do think he didn't 
want to be there *under those circumstances*.

> 14.  Percy could be so many things.  What do you think?  Is he good 
> but misguided?  Is he ESE?  Is he just a prat?  What explains his 
> behavior?  Is he embarrassed? proud? ambitious? hurt?

Ceridwen:
He's trying to be what he thought his parents wanted - a ministry 
employee with a good position.  He just didn't get the fine points.  
I think he's in a very good position for the Order, if a 
reconciliation takes place.

> 15.  In the final scene of the chapter, Harry first senses and then 
> knows that Scrimgeour is after something, and he is determined not 
to 
> give it to him.  We see a Harry who I would argue is self-
possessed, 
> confident, forceful, and quite "adult" in sticking up for what he 
> believes is right.  Were you surprised at the growth he displayed, 
or 
> was this just exactly what you would have expected from him?  What 
> did you think of Harry in this scene?

Ceridwen:
Harry was admirable in this scene.  He didn't insult Scrimgeour, he 
tried to be polite, he didn't let Scrimgeour walk all over him or 
intimidate him.  I think this is a shining example of Harry growing 
up.

> 16.  What do you think of Scrimgeour now? Compare him to Fudge, if 
> you like.

Ceridwen:
Scrimgeour is manipulative and grasping.  He needs to be, to some 
extent, to survive in politics.  He is harsh, I would expect, but 
decisive.  In some ways, the opposite of Fudge.  But since the 
Ministry seems to have been set up as a third party and in opposition 
to the Order on one level or another, he will never understand Harry 
or the Order and its people.
 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan,
> who would like to thank Penapart Elf, Potioncat, Jen R., Alla & 
Carol 
> for their comments, suggestions and/or encouragement.

Ceridwen, thanking SSSusan for a wonderful summary and questions.