Hagrid and Snape. LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 152848

> Magpie:
> Okay, let me try to explain what I mean.  First in terms of 
behaving 
> as a peer I mean anytime when the teacher sort of gives up what 
> should be the objective place of a teacher and fights dirty.  
Snape 
> does this with Harry.  If I were in his class I would feel 
> uncomfortable when he picked on Harry not just because it's cruel 
> but because it should be beneath him as a teacher. He's not 
supposed 
> to interact with kids on that level in class and get personally 
> ruffled.  When he does that, to me, he shows a weakness as a 
teacher.

Alla:

Right, I agree of course.

Magpie: 
> Now, to get back to Hagrid, JKR has I think implied that one of 
the 
> reasons Snape teaches in her fictional school is that kids have to 
> learn to deal with people like him who exist in the world.  In 
> Potions class the kids aren't just learning Potions but a 
> social/personal lesson about dealing with a person in authority 
who 
> is abusing it, or just a person in authority who is demanding and 
> sarcastic etc.  Hagrid, imo, teaches the same kind of personal 
> lesson--and he teaches it inside class as well as outside, and he 
> began teaching it before he ever became a teacher.  It has nothing 
> to do with Malfoy or a lack of confidence.  I really can't imagine 
> him being any different if that first class hadn't happened.  
> 
> Hagrid on one hand has a lot of good qualities. He's also got a 
sort 
> of amazing ability to tame wild animals etc.  DD says he'd trust 
> Hagrid with his life and I believe he means that within the 
context 
> that he is saying it.  However, Hagrid is also a comic character 
> because in some ways he's like a big kid.  He's interested in what 
> he's interested in, and often can't really see the big picture. 
Part 
> of knowing him, as an adult, is making allowances for this, which 
is 
> why Hagrid is often treated as if he's younger than characters 
> younger than he is. Charlie Weasley sternly tells Hagrid he's got 
> the dragon eggs counted, for instance, years after Hagrid already 
> got into trouble with a dragon.  Harry himself has also accepted 
> this aspect of Hagrid. All the Trio know that Hagrid has certain 
> limitations they have to work around or defend or put up with.  
> 
> As a teacher what this translates to is that in his class the kids 
> learn to look out for themselves--I don't think it's OOC for DD to 
> see it that way if he thinks Snape's behavior is a learning 
> experience.  The class is too dangerous at most times for Hagrid's 
> being a "joke" to mean it's a complete blow-off.  He's a lesson 
that 
> sometimes you're going to be in a situation like that and the kids 
> have to learn it.  Years after the Buckbeak incident Malfoy is 
still 
> mouthing off, but he's also very jumpy and making sure he hears 
all 
> the directions--after all, the outcome of PoA no matter what 
threats 
> he made is that he's still in this class and Hagrid is still 
> Hagrid.  When he asks about the safety of the Thestrals, Hagrid is 
> not at all reassuring.  
> 
> When Hagrid teaches he's the same guy he is when he's not 
teaching, 
> and the kids all get that and react accordingly.  Harry himself 
> loves Hagrid and respects things about him, but he still knows he 
> sometimes has to deal with him as a child.  Hagrid hasn't changed 
> one way or the other since he started teaching and I really don't 
> think he will, because changing Hagrid in this way would be 
changing 
> the essence of Hagrid.  But he fits right into the teaching staff 
of 
> Hogwarts.  Had Harry never known Hagrid outside of class he could 
> easily have shown up as the CoMC teacher in third year and be 
funny, 
> the joke being that CoMC is the class where you might get killed 
> because the teacher, well-meaning as he seems, is on the monster's 
> side.  Mostly Harry's very open about his personal affection for 
> Hagrid being the reason he wants him teaching.


Alla:

Let me just say again very loudly. I don't really dispute anything 
you said about Hagrid being a comic character, being treated often 
as a big kid, etc. As I said as a person I would greatly prefer to 
know him that Snape, but that is undisputed to me that Hagrid has 
plenty of problems as a teacher, and even though I am still hoping 
that he may get better as one, he may never do so.

You can also be totally right that this is the lesson of Hagrid's 
teaching - how to look out for themselves, etc.

Having said that, what I do think is that despite Hagrid's nature, 
despite his often treating Trio as peers, etc, etc, I think he did 
TRIED on his first lesson to be a teacher, NOT a peer. I think 
Malfoy's incident shook him and shook him badly, especially since as 
I also said in his youth he was already framed unfairly and that 
basically stopped him from having his education.

Have Hagrid tried not hard enough? Maybe, but I took another look at 
his first lesson and I honestly think that for someone who DOES 
often behaves as a big child (with the big heart, but child 
nevertheless), he made a good faith attempt to be a teacher.

If he was a more experienced teacher, he would have continued doing 
his best through the year, but Hagrid NEVER taught before and one 
Malfoy is all what it took, IMO to take away all the potential that 
could have been there. And again, I am not even arguing that it was 
necessarily been there.

So, let's go to canon, shall we?

Was Hagrid supposed to bring Hippogriffs to his first lesson?

Surely not, NOT on the first lesson. After all as we all know they 
are given three XXX in Fantastic Beasts (competent wizard could 
cope) and it is said that expert can tame them.

BUT as we also know wizarding kids become experts pretty fast, so I 
would say that it is not beyond the limit of imagination that 
wizarding teenager can successfully tame hippogriffs. And we KNOW 
that Harry did.

Besides, Hippogriffs are not given five XXXXX, so what I am trying 
to say is that while Hagridd started with more dangerous animals 
than he should have been, he did not started with extraordinary 
dangerous animals, those animals were supposed to be studied later 
but during the third year, IMO.

How do I come to this conclusion? Because of this quote:

"School gov'nors have bin told, o'course," said Hagrid 
miserably. "They reckon I started too big. Shoulda left hippogriffs 
fer later... done flobberworms or summat... Jus' thought it'd make a 
good firs' lesson....'S all my fault..." - PoA, paperback, p.121.

What I find interesting is that School governors do not say that 
Hagrid was not supposed to bring hippogriffs to school at all, they 
say that he was supposed to bring them later.

Now, of course one can disagree but I somehow doubt that School 
governors review lessons plans for years ahead, I think they are 
talking about this year and this year only.

So, Hagrid brought them earlier, but not THAT early as in they were 
supposed to study them in year seven, IMO.

The man tried to make a lesson interesting. I like that he tried 
engaging the kids' attention.

Now, of course I am of the firm opinion that Malfoy was complete and 
absolute brat at that lesson and has nobody to blame for being hurt 
but himself.

The warnings were given, now in RL I would ask teacher of the 
dangerous class to repeat the warnings again, but I do think that in 
Potterverse the fact that Hagrid GAVE the warnings means that he 
gave sufficient ones. That is IMO of course.

I really don't remember Snape repeating his instructions more than 
ONCE ever. I can totally be wrong, but that is my impression.

So, moving on. Malfoy thinks Hippogriffs are piece of cake, he 
learns that it is not so, gets hurt and Hagrid carries him to the 
medical wing.

I think in your previous post you said that your main problem with 
the lesson is what happened next.  Because Hagrid lost control over 
his class, is that correct? I reread this lesson and I am very 
confused as to why you find Hagrid's behavior problematic, 
especially because Hagrid is NOT here. He carries Malfoy to the 
hospital wing, as IMO every responsible teacher should do, when 
student gets hurt in his care.

I am suddenly having a flash forward to Snape saying that he sees no 
difference about Hermione's teeth and being praised for not 
PREVENTING the girl going to the hospital wing. Or, Snape seeing 
Harry's bloodied face and doing nothing whatsoever in HBP) Sorry, 
but I find Hagrid's behavior here way more resembling as to how 
responsible adult should behave. NOT saying that Snape SHOULD have 
carried Harry or Hermione to hospital wing, but that he should have 
definitely told them to go there.

So, yes, kids wonder off because teacher is not there. I am just 
saying that teacher has a very GOOD reason - an injured student to 
not be on the lesson.

After this Hagrid drinking is of course NOT teacher like behavior, 
but as I said earlier I think because of his inexperience and his 
general character too he was shaken off badly.

Then of course we have the whole year of Malfoy pretending to be 
hurt badly (you do agree that he was pretending, right?) and trying 
to fire Hagrid and murder Buckbeak.

I don't see how all their third year could not have affected Hagrid 
in the bad way.

To make a long story short - Hagrid is a good person, not a good 
teacher, BUT I think on his first lesson he DID try. That's all I am 
saying and what Ron said:

"That was a really bad thing to happen to Hagrid's first class, 
though, wasn't it?" said Ron, looking worried. "Trust Malfoy to mess 
up things for him" - PoA, p.119

Alla:
> > BUT if there is no other choice for students who cannot study 
under 
> > Snape because he mistreats them badly (IMO of course), then no 
Snape 
> > should be fired and fast, IMO.

Irene: 
> Then so should be Hagrid. Obviously no one is prepared to study 
under 
> him voluntarily, so Dumbledore should have either hired Grubbly-
Plank as 
> an alternative, or fired Hagrid altogether.

Alla:

Um, I PARTIALLY agree in a sense that if I make RL comparison than 
another CoMC teacher should have been provided, BUT since I don't 
believe that Hagrid actively harms his students, I don't think that 
he should have been fired for that.

I mean, if the better choice of the teacher can be found than yes, 
sure, but simply fire Hagrid because he harms students like Snape in 
my opinion harms at least some of his students, that I disagree with.

JMO,

Alla