CHAPDISC: HBP16, A Very Frosty Christmas

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 152897

> >>SSSusan:
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS:  Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince,     
> Chapter 16:  A Very Frosty Christmas
> <snip of summary>
> QUESTIONS
> 1.  Why the heck does Harry never look anything up?  Clearly, he's 
> curious about the Unbreakable Vow.  Why not grab a book?  Why not 
> ask the librarian?

Betsy Hp:
To be fair to Harry, he leaves for the Burrow the morning directly 
following Slughorn's party.  So he doesn't actually have time to go 
to the library.  Also, I don't know that Harry was all that curious 
about the Vow. Draco had blown it off, and it's not until Ron seems 
so stunned by the implications that Harry seems to think it's 
important.

> 2.  So what's your best guess of what the twins' attempted 
> Unbreakable Vow was all about?  What do you think they tried to   
> get Ron to do?  Do you think they understood exactly what they    
> were doing?  How do you image these youngsters (they'd have been   
> about 7) would've learned about UVs?

Betsy Hp:
I imagine they picked it up from their dad, because of his work in 
the Ministry, or possibly Bill, with his work as a curse breaker.  
Either way, I doubt the twins really *knew* what they were doing.  I 
totally imagine them getting Ron to swear to be their slave for life 
or other sibling type thing.  ("I swear I'll always do your chores" 
or "I swear I'll only answer to 'Tiny little pip-squeak'" or some 
such thing.)

It does lead me to wonder if *Draco* really knew what an Unbreakable 
Vow was.  As an only child I'd imagine he'd be more sheltered.  And 
he does seem singularly unimpressed with Snape doing such a thing.

> 3.  Is it significant that Ginny has told Fred & George about Ron 
> & Lav-Lav, given the "encounter" with Ron when he happened upon    
> her & Dean snogging?  Do you think she's always talked about Ron   
> to F&G? Do you think she was hoping they'd transfer their "nosing 
> in" to Ron's love life from hers?

Betsy Hp:
Well, Ginny has been the twins' informant for some time now.  I'm 
thinking of how she was the one to tell the twins about Percy dating 
Penelope.  What is interesting to me is that Ginny and Ron seem to 
stop at the twins as far as older siblings go.  IOWs, no one runs to 
tell Charlie or Bill who's dating who.  And obviously, Percy isn't 
told either.  

I find it interesting because there's been a running theme of Ron 
trying to get in good with the twins and disassociate from Percy 
since the series began.  It seems that maybe Ginny is trying to do 
the same thing.  But the twins are pretty self-efficient. The 
closest anyone got was Ginny in OotP while they were all trapped at 
Grimmauld Place.  She seemed one of their team at the time.  But as 
soon as school started up again, the twins were back on their own 
again. 

Ron doesn't seem nearly as bothered at the twins ribbing as Ginny 
was.  Perhaps Ron has matured a bit, to the point where he doesn't 
really need the twins approval anymore?  

> 4. Fred waits to call Percy a prat until after Molly has left the 
> kitchen.  Does this show there is a side to him which cares about 
> others' feelings?  Or does he simply fear the Wrath of Molly?

Betsy Hp:
I agree with Debbie that it didn't read that Fred waited until Molly 
left to call Percy a prat but does it *as* Molly is leaving.  Though 
he didn't say it to his mom's face, which, for *him* is showing a 
bit of sensitivity. <g>  And I'd say it's more to not hurt Molly 
than to avoid getting yelled at.  At this point I think Molly is 
more apt to break into tears, which I think Fred would do more to 
avoid than her screaming at him.

> 5.  What do you think of Harry's pronouncement that he's going to 
> tell DD and anyone who can help about Snape's offer to help       
> Draco? Does this signal a change in Harry re: turning to others,   
> relying upon others more?

Betsy Hp:
I think it *does* signal a change, and a good one at that.  He 
trusts that others can help, and he realizes that sometimes he 
*needs* help.  That's two big steps for our boy, Harry. <g>

> 6.  When Ron says that DD & his dad are likely to protest that     
> Snape is not really intending to help Draco but is only trying to 
> get information from him, Harry says, "They didn't hear him.  No   
> one's that good an actor, not even Snape."  Contrast this with    
> Snape's statement to Draco:  "Where do you think I would have been 
> all these years, if I had not known how to act?"  It seems to me   
> that this is the crux of the Harry-Snape "problem" and            
> the "problem" for the fandom in trying to figure out Severus      
> Snape.  *Is* he acting?  When is he acting and when is he not?    
> How good an actor is he?  Is Harry correct that "even Snape" is    
> not that good an actor?

Betsy Hp:
Obviously, Snape must present a false face at different times.  
However, I do think Snape hides behind the truth as often as he 
can.  As we see in Spinner's End, he's playing an artful game.  I 
think Snape honestly *is* trying to help Draco, and is worried about 
him.  I think this is what Harry picks up on.  The question then 
becomes, *how* is Snape trying to help Draco?

It's interesting though, because Harry is pretty darn confident that 
he can read Snape, that he's got a basic understanding of the man.  
Considering how much Harry relates to the Prince, I wonder if Harry 
isn't correct in his assumptions that he can read Snape fairly 
well?  That really the only thing Harry is missing is Snape's 
motivations?  (For example: In PoA, Snape *did* dislike and distrust 
Lupin.  But not for the reasons Harry thought he did.)

> 7.  Who do you think, in the past, has issued invitations to      
> Hermione for Christmas at the Burrow?  Do you imagine Hermione    
> invited herself? Ron invited her? Mrs. Weasley? Ginny?  Or that it 
> was simply assumed she'd go?  What do you think happened this     
> year?  Was an invitation given and declined? Was it all so awkward 
> between Ron & Hermione that she was not invited at all?

Betsy Hp:
Isn't this the first Christmas Harry's had at the Burrow?  Has 
Hermione ever been there for Christmas?  They all went to Gimmauld 
Place in OotP, but that was at Sirius's invitation, not the 
Weasleys.  The rest of the time, didn't everyone either go to their 
own homes or stay at Hogwarts?

I will say that the times Hermione has come to stay at the Burrow 
it's been as Ron's guest, not Ginny's.

> 8.  Comments on the "gnome angel"?  Yet another hilarious stunt by 
> the twins, or yet another sign that the twins lack a conscience 
> and/or are cruel?

Betsy Hp:
Oh, the twins are most definitely cruel.  And their conscience is 
two sizes too small, I'd say.  This is the third time we've seen 
them tomenting an animal, though at least they didn't kill the gnome 
(assuming the paint didn't hurt it).  (Here's hoping they don't wet 
the bed. <g>)

> 9.  Many people fault Molly (or Molly & Ginny) for not being warm 
> and welcoming with Fleur.  Is there anyone who, to the contrary,   
> finds Fleur's behavior in the Christmas Eve scene to be rude ["Eez 
> eet over?  Thank goodness, what an `orrible--"]?  Or should Molly 
> not have subjected everyone to Celestina Warbeck in the first     
> place?

Betsy Hp:
Oh, Fleur is definitely, hilariously rude.  I imagine she's tired of 
all the passive-aggressive stuff Molly has been dishing out (the "no 
sweater for Fleur" thing was classic "I'm being *subtle*!!!!Molly) 
and is trying to get the fight out into the open.  I really feel 
sorry for Fleur.  I can only imagine that either Bill is worried for 
her safety, and figures the Burrow is the safest place for her, or 
Fleur is worried for Bill's safety and insists on being where he 
is.  Either way, she's having to deal with a woman who has more 
emotion than tact and is determined to make her feel less than 
welcome.

Something that interests me is that it's Arthur who jumps up to 
drown out Fleur's complaints.  So is he the one most interested in 
maintaining the peace?  Bill doesn't say a word.  Of course, I get 
the sense that Arthur tries to avoid Molly and her moods as much as 
possible.  Which I know isn't the popular view.

> 10. <snip of what I pretty much agree with>
> Additionally, Lupin makes some remarks here about Snape which      
> surprised some fans. Was he speaking what he truly believed?  Did 
> you believe him?

Betsy Hp:
Ah, Lupin.  So hard for me to get a firm grasp on him.  I think 
Lupin would like to *think* he's telling the truth.  So I don't 
think he's deliberatly lying.  The "no comment" tact is a favorite 
one of Lupin's, so I don't think he's uncomfortable perching on the 
fence.

What is interesting is that he says of Snape "We both know he wanted 
my job..." [333]  Huh?  So did Lupin never know that the DADA 
position was actually cursed?  Or, did he know that but still 
thought Snape really did want the job?  Did he think Snape didn't 
know? 

> 11.  It is clear, to Lupin anyway, that Harry is *hoping* that the 
> HBP is his father.  This is reinforced by the fact that Harry is 
> disappointed when he checks the book's date and sees it's too old 
> to have been his dad's era.  Harry has also previously stated that 
> the HBP is a better potions teacher than Snape.  Why does Harry   
> like the HBP so much, and why does he *want* him to be his        
> father?  And what does all this say about Harry and Snape?  Has   
> something changed in Snape, to have made him truly a lesser       
> teacher now than then?  Or is it simply the removal, for Harry, of 
> Snape the person and their unpleasant history from the mix, so     
> that he's seeing "pure teaching" in the book and not the          
> personality of the teacher?

Betsy Hp:
I don't know that I'd call the Prince a teacher.  These were notes 
written for himself, and it's not like Harry is getting a firm grasp 
on *why* the various techniques and changes scribbled in the book 
work.  However, I do think Harry connects with the Prince.  He 
appreciates his style, I think.  And that's why he's hoping the 
Prince is his father.  >From the Pensieve memory Harry received a 
rather strong blow in seeing that his father was not a boy who he 
would have related to.  While this Prince guy is (just as Harry 
related to the young Snape in the pensieve).

I do think Snape and Harry are an awful lot alike.  Which is part of 
the reason they clash so badly with each other.  They get stubborn 
on similar things and each refuses to yield.  But here, without 
the "unpleasant history", they finally get a chance to meet on 
common ground.  Gosh, I'm looking forward to book 7 when the full 
implications of this will hopefully get a chance to manifest. 

> 12. Why would werewolves have a better life under Voldemort?

Betsy Hp:
No.  The chaos would be grand at first, but they'd eventually find 
themselves the hunted.  Especially when the wizards went on no-holds-
barred attack.  As they would after a bit.

> 13.  Are you surprised Molly falls for the story that Percy       
> couldn't stand to not see his family since they were in the       
> neighborhood?  Why or why not?

Betsy Hp:
Molly *has* to believe Percy.  It would break her heart if she 
couldn't.  I'm not a huge fan of Molly, but I felt for her in this 
scene.

What was interesting is how Arthur reacted.  No matter Molly's 
feelings, it looks like Arthur is quite unwilling to welcome his 
lost son back into the fold.  Is Arthur really that unforgiving?  If 
so, I think it looks a bit bad on Arthur.  It was Arthur who started 
the fight in the first place.  Why was he so angry at Percy for 
getting a promotion?  Why is he so angry at Percy for continuing to 
work for the very same people he works for?  How could he possibly 
still maintain that Percy is supposed to spy on the family?

> 14.  Percy could be so many things.  What do you think?  Is he    
> good but misguided?  Is he ESE?  Is he just a prat?  What explains 
> his behavior?  Is he embarrassed? proud? ambitious? hurt?

Betsy Hp:
What Debbie said. <g>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/152847

> 15.  In the final scene of the chapter, Harry first senses and     
> then knows that Scrimgeour is after something, and he is          
> determined not to give it to him.  We see a Harry who I would     
> argue is self-possessed, confident, forceful, and quite "adult" in 
> sticking up for what he believes is right.  Were you surprised at 
> the growth he displayed, or was this just exactly what you would   
> have expected from him?  What did you think of Harry in this scene?

Betsy Hp:
I don't think Scrimgeour was really all that subtle so I don't think 
it was that hard for Harry to realize he was after something.  
However, I *loved* how Harry handled it.  It was great how he didn't 
say a word to help Scrimgeour along and made Scrimgeour do all the 
work.  Harry really did appear much more adult, and while I'm not 
sure I'd have predicted it, it does fit his character.  I'm really 
glad he learned from his mistakes in OotP.
 
> 16.  What do you think of Scrimgeour now? Compare him to Fudge, if 
> you like.

Betsy Hp:
He's an interesting character.  You can definitely see that he was 
once an Auror.  He seemed to play both good and bad cop in this 
scene.  I didn't get the sense that Scrimgeour was really trying to 
hide the ball so much as put a better face on what was really a full 
frontal attack, so I didn't take points away for lack of subtlety.

[An aside:  Why did he bring Percy along?  He could have just 
dropped in to say hi to Arthur.  Does one need a member of the 
family playing escort to get past the wards, maybe?]

And what did Scrimgeour mean when he said he'd wanted to meet Harry 
for a "very long time"?  He even repeats that it's been a very long 
time.  Does six months count as a "very long time" or has he been 
interested in meeting Harry for longer than we've known him? Why 
does Dumbledore see this as a bad thing?

Is Scrimgeour just interested in Harry as a figure head (which would 
make sense if he didn't know about the prophecy) or does he realize 
that Harry is going to have a bigger role to play?

And if Scrimgeour is really so very interested in Harry, why does he 
make such a colossal mistake in bringing up Umbridge?  He didn't 
have to mention her by name, so why does he?  I can't imagine that 
the enmity between Umbridge and Harry was a great big secret.  She 
spent most of the school year trying to get Harry expelled.  So why 
does Scrimgeour draw Harry's attention to the fact that he knows and 
converses with the woman who banned Harry from quidditch for life? 

> Siriusly Snapey Susan,
> who would like to thank Penapart Elf, Potioncat, Jen R., Alla &    
> Carol for their comments, suggestions and/or encouragement.

Betsy Hp:
Excellent discussion, SSSusan, thanks!

Betsy Hp