[HPforGrownups] Scary Teachers - Good Teachers (was: Re: Hagrid and Snape...)

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 152903

On 25 May 2006 at 13:33, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> Alla:
> 
> As I said in the past, Shawn, I am talking about extreme cases of 
> harm only. I know on that we disagree, but that's how I feel. If the 
> choice is between majority getting the teacher which is good for them 
> and several students ending up permanently harmed as the result, I 
> prefer majority not getting the teacher which is good for them. I 
> always bring the example of teacher  giving perfect education to 
> forty students and let's say killing one of them. I do NOT think that 
> such teacher should be allowed to teach.

Shaun:

In theory, I don't disagree with you. I can certainly agree that it's possible for a teacher to be 
*so* bad with regards to even one student that it does cancel out all the good they might do 
with other students. And in those cases, then, yes, I would want the teacher removed. A 
teacher who killed a student would definitely qualify. 

But the thing is, I really don't see this happening with regards to Snape and any of his 
students. Yes, Neville, I think does experience negatives from his time in Snape's classes - 
but it's nowhere near the level of 'extreme cases of harm' that I can see. Neville doesn't seem 
to me to learn effectively in Snape's classes, and he gets upset by being in them - but that's 
not extreme harm. Nowhere near. I was severely harmed by some of my school experiences. 
I work with kids who've been extremely harmed by some of their school experiences. I know, 
first hand, that it happens. But I don't see it happening to Neville. I really don't. That's a 
matter of opinion and you are, of course, quite free to hold a different opinion. But I just don't 
see it.

But it's also important to realise that it's not solely the teacher that is at issue when a child is 
harmed by a particular teaching experience. If that child is being unusually harmed in 
comparison to the other children, it's at least likely to be because there's something unusual 
about the child. That was certainly the case with me, and it's the case with the kids I work 
with.

Neville is a boy whose parents were horribly tortured to the point of insanity - a boy who all 
indications are has to visit them regularly so it's not something like a death that you can often 
put behind you. Blaming a teacher for the emotional problems of a boy with that in his past, 
seems to me to be quite odd.

I think it's relevant to look at 

"'There's one - the Cruciatus Curse,' said Neville in a small but distinct voice.  

Moody was looking very intently at Neville, this time with both eyes.  

'Your name's Longbottom?' he said, his magical eye swooping down to check the register 
again.  

Neville nodded nervously, but Moody made no further inquiries. Turning back to the class at 
large, he reached into the jar for the next spider and placed it upon the desktop, where it 
remained motionless, apparently too scared to move.  

'The Cruciatus Curse,' said Moody. 'Needs to be a bit bigger for you to get the idea,'  he said, 
pointing his wand at the spider. 'Engorgio!'  

The spider swelled. It was now larger than a tarantula. Abandoning all pretense, Ron pushed 
his chair backward, as far away from Moody's desk as possible.  

Moody raised his wand again, pointed it at the spider, and muttered, 'Crucio!'

At once, the spider's legs bent in upon its body; it rolled over and began to twitch horribly, 
rocking from side to side. No sound came from it, but Harry was sure that if it could have 
given voice, it would have been screaming. Moody did not remove his wand, and the spider 
started to shudder and jerk more violently.  

'Stop it!' Hermione said shrilly.  

Harry looked around at her. She was looking, not at the spider, but at Neville, and Harry, 
following her gaze, saw that Neville's hands were clenched upon the desk in front of him, his 
knuckles white, his eyes wide and horrified."

(GoF, p189-190).

This illustrates an important point in my view. Neville has been severely affected by his past - 
and there's no reason he shouldn't have been. He has horrible experiences in his past.

And *sometimes* those experiences have an impact on how he responds in class to different 
experiences - and blaming the teacher for his unusual responses really is putting the blame 
in the wrong place.

And it's not just Neville - it's less drastic and dramatic - but Ron flees the spider. His past 
experiences have left him with a horror of spiders - and so he responds differently to those.

And:

"'Avada Kedavra!' Moody roared.

There was a flash of blinding green light and a rushing sound, as though a vast, invisible 
something was soaring through the air - instantaneously the spider rolled over onto its back, 
unmarked, but unmistakably dead. Several of the students stifled cries; Ron had thrown 
himself backward and almost toppled off his seat as the spider skidded toward him.  

Moody swept the dead spider off the desk onto the floor.

'Not nice,' he said calmly. 'Not pleasant. And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. 
Only one known person has ever survived it, and he's sitting right in front of me.'  

Harry felt his face redden as Moody's eyes (both of them) looked into his own. He could feel 
everyone else looking around at him too. Harry stared at the blank blackboard as though 
fascinated by it, but not really seeing it at all...  

So that was how his parents had died... exactly like that spider. Had they been unblemished 
and unmarked too? Had they simply seen the flash of green light and heard the rush of 
speeding death, before life was wiped from their bodies?  

Harry had been picturing his parents' deaths over and over again for three years now, ever 
since he'd found out they had been murdered, ever since he'd found out what had happened 
that night: Wormtail had betrayed his parents' whereabouts to Voldemort, who had come to 
find them at their cottage. How Voldemort had killed Harry's father first.  

How James Potter had tried to hold him off, while he shouted at his wife to take Harry and 
run... Voldemort had advanced on Lily Potter, told her to move aside so that he could kill 
Harry... how she had begged him to kill her instead, refused to stop shielding her son... and 
so Voldemort had murdered her too, before turning his wand on Harry.  

Harry knew these details because he had heard his parents' voices when he had fought the 
dementors last year - for that was the terrible power of the dementors: to force their victims to 
relive the worst memories of their lives, and drown, powerless, in their own despair.  

Moody was speaking again, from a great distance, it seemed to Harry. With a massive effort, 
he pulled himself back to the present and listened to what Moody was saying."

(GoF, p.190-191)

The same applies for Harry - his experiences means he reacts differently to certain things 
than other children do.

Is Moody(Crouch) to blame for what happens in that class? For what happens to Neville? For 
Ron fleeing the spider? For Harry losing all focus on the class?

I don't think so.

And I think blaming Snape for Neville's reactions in classes makes just about as much 
sense. Neville has demons in his past - and the blame for those demons lie with the people 
who did him real damage.

I'm not saying Snape couldn't be nicer to Neville - I wouldn't object if he was. But Snape isn't 
primarily responsible for the way Neville acts.  

> Alla:
> 
> Sure, as I said choosing here means involving child parents, etc, but 
> let's say if child has permanent nightmares as a result of being in 
> this teacher's class ( like to me this represents Neville's Boggart), 
> then yes, I think something must be done here.  Oh, and you don't 
> think that Harry's case is rather clear too?

Shaun:

No, actually I don't.

Harry's case to me is actually very unclear. Not because I don't think he's treated unfairly by 
Snape - because I do. But because I'm not sure if he's suffering any significant problems 
because of it. I think Harry may actually be benefitting from being in Snape's classes - he's a 
lot more resilient than Neville.

If I was running Hogwarts, I'd probably pull Neville out of Snape's class. Potions isn't critical 
to all future careers, people can do well enough without it, and I don't think Neville is likely to 
pass it, or pass it well. Better to excuse him from the class.

But Harry - well, we know Harry can pass potions and pass it well, even though it's been 
taught by Snape. A different situation.

I had a significant number of really bad experiences with teachers when I was a child. In only 
one case, out of all those cases, would I, looking back, wanted to have been taken out of that 
teachers control.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia