Did Dumbly Deserve what he got?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 152950

Alla wrote:
<snip> Believe me, if DD trust WAS justified, I would want a VERY good
reason for that.

Carol responds:
So do we all, regardless of which side of the Snape fence we're on.
Unlike you, I'm hoping that DD was right to trust Snape. I'd much
rather that DD not be shown to be "a stupid old man," as Draco puts
it. But otherwise, we agree on this point.
> 
Alla:
> But no, I don't think that DD got what he deserved. How can giving 
> people second chances can ever be wrong? 

Carol:
Exactly.

Alla:
Now those people throwing away those second chances, that's tragic,
yes. IMO.

Carol:
But did Snape throw away the second chance? We don't know yet. And
IMO, he's an even more tragic figure if he *didn't* throw away his
second chance, if, ironically, he was forced *by loyalty* to kill the
man he was loyal to. (To hold this view, it's necessary to believe
that DD would have died in any case and that DD preferred to be killed
by Snape rather than by the DEs, Draco, or the poison. That's what I
think. I also believe that DD didn't want Snape to die from breaking
the UV because it was essential for him to get Draco and Harry off the
tower and the DEs out of Hogwarts, as no one else could have done. I
know you don't hold this view, but it fits with Snape saving Harry
from the Crucio.)
> 
Alla:
> Oh, and I don't see DD as person making any kind of UVs. They seem 
> kind of dark to me too and as we know DD does not like doing dark 
> magic. :)

Carol:
On this point, you and I are in perfect agreement. Whatever caused DD
to trust Snape, it is not a vow that would have forced Snape to die if
he broke it. DD is not Narcissa, who wants Snape's help to protect her
son and doesn't care that he's putting his life on the line by doing
so. As Ceridwen said, DD may pressure people to promise to obey him
absolutely (Harry's promise before entering the cave), but he will not
condemn them to death if they refuse to swear obedience. (Snape did
promise something, if Hagrid's report of the overheard conversation is
accurate, but we don't know what it was, and I doubt very much if the
promise involved a UV. (Who would the bonder have been? Hagrid, who
can't keep a secret to save his life and would also be reluctant to
perform Dark magic?) So, yes, I agree with you completely here.
> 
Alla:
> Oh, and while I think that Snape killed DD because he was saving 
> himself, NOT because DD ordered him to do so, I unfortunately don't 
> think that Snape planned it all along.

Carol:
Here's where we differ, in part. I don't think that Snape killed DD to
save himself. The hatred and revulsion on his face don't fit with that
motive. I think that, like Harry in the cave, he was filled with
self-hatred and revulsion at what he was being forced, by the UV and
by unforeseen circumstances and by Dumbledore's wishes, to do. I think
that the last thing he wanted was to be forced to return to the DEs as
the murderer of the only man who ever trusted him. He would, I think,
much rather have died heroically but futilely defending the dying
Dumbledore from the DEs. But then Harry and Draco would also most
likely have died, and DD's death would be for nothing.

I do absolutely agree that Snape could not have planned to kill DD all
along, given that he didn't know about Draco's plan for getting the
DEs into Hogwarts. The only part I disagree with here is the word
"unfortunately," which I take to mean that you're conceding the point
reluctantly. :-)
> 
Alla:
> Unfortunately, I think that Snape truly felt trapped on the Tower.

Carol:
Again we agree, except for the word "unfortunately." Considering that
DD had defeated LV in the MoM, there's no way that Snape could have
anticipated a wandless, defenseless DD sliding helplessly down the
wall. He must indeed have felt the UV closing in on him, with no way
out of DD's murder except his own death, and he had only seconds to
decide which of two terrible choices was the right one. 

Alla:
 Not that I think that he found the best way to deal with it. ;)

Carol:
Here we disagree. I don't think that Snape made the Wormtail-like
choice of saving his skin at all costs. I think he knew what DD wanted
and did exactly that, very much against his will, sacrificing his
place in the Order and the respect of the WW and his personal freedom
to obey DD's last, silent order. But regardless of the reason for the
feeling of entrapment, yes, absolutely, he felt trapped as the UV and
the DADA curse forced his hand.

It's difficult to distinguish here between what is right and what is
easy because neither choice is easy, and right depends on what we
think DD wanted when he made his last, unstated request, "Severus,
please." Snape is still "Severus"; DD still trusts him but has to beg
him to do the right thing. Whether he did so or not remains to be
seen, but there are indications (the peacefully sleeping portrait, the
fact that Harry himself survived the encounter undetected by the DEs
even though Snape himself almost certainly knew he was there) that
Snape did what was right at a terrible cost to himself.

At any rate, until Book 7 comes out, I think it's a mistake to assume
that Snape is evil. Tragic, yes. A murderer, yes (unfortunately!). But
ESE! or OFH!? The evidence is not all in, and only Dumbledore, erm,
JKR, knows for certain where Snape's loyalties lie. Until then, all we
can do is examine the canon and see where it leads us, and at this
point it leads me to conclude that he's DDM.

Carol