Scary Teachers - Good Teachers (was: Re: Hagrid and Snape...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 153014

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Basically then, you're arguing that all the other students in 
> > Harry's class know more about what's going on at Hogwarts than   
> > Harry does.

> >>Neri:
> Yup. Harry never knows about these things.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Really?  I'd love some sort of canon on that.  Because I don't 
recall a time where some massive change occured at Hogwarts and 
Harry was clueless, Ron was clueless, and even more importantly, 
*Hermione* was clueless, but all the other Hogwarts students of 
their class knew exactly what was going on.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > There's a sweet simplicity in just accepting the fact that only 
> > Harry and Ron do not have Potions textbooks, so therefore only   
> > Harry and Ron failed to make an Outstanding on their Potions OWL.

> >>Neri:
> No, it's not simple, because then you have to ask yourself what
> happened with all the rest of the students that got EE in their
> potions OWL.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
They simply didn't want to take potions.  When going over their 
career choices with their heads of house, they realized that they 
probably weren't going to pull an Outstanding and so looked to 
another career.

> >>Neri:
> Potions is a prestigious subject and a required NEWT for several   
> high profile jobs, such as Aurors and Healers...

Yes, being an Auror sounds cool, but I don't recall Fake!Moody being 
flocked by excited fan boys and girls *dying* to find out how they 
could possibly become Aurors.  Actually, most of the student body 
seemed rather put off by Fake!Moody.

As to being a Healer, I'm not sure it really is that high profile of 
a job.  At least, we haven't seen any wizarding parents pressuring 
their children to be Healers when they grow up.  What we *have* seen 
is pressure to join the Ministry, and we've seen that this is where 
ambitious characters tend to go, or get told to go.  Potions isn't a 
requirement in this case.

> >>Neri:
> ...and the new potions master is an influential man that has      
> connections, opens a club and knows Gwenog Johns.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Again, I don't recall Slughorn surrounded by students all eager to 
get into his "club".  Though, this does raise an interesting idea:  
Perhaps Slughorn was disappointed to find out the young Harry hadn't 
qualified for NEWT Potions, so he dropped a little bug in 
McGonagall's ear... <g>

Speculation is fun, but it is just speculation.  If JKR wanted to 
show Snape as a dismal failure as a teacher, I doubt she'd have left 
it up to readers to make up informational columns in the WW's 
newspaper that Hermione chooses to ignore.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Actually, I think there's probably less than 40 students in     
> > Harry's year.  

> >>Neri:
> Seeing as this number is canonically flinty canon, I prefer not   
> use it as the basis for any canon reasoning.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
The actual number of students in Harry's class isn't really Flinty, 
IMO.  *Everything* in canon supports the number being around 40 
total.  It's everywhere else that the number starts to fall down, 
Hogwarts being the only wizarding school, etc.

So yeah, if you're looking at the wizarding popluation as a whole, 
it gets a bit hinky.  But to try and suggest that there are all 
these secret students running around that *never* get mentioned in 
canon, it looks more like borrowing trouble and fighting the text 
than the text behaving inconsistently.

(IMO, the best way to handle the population issue is to assume that 
Harry's class is unusually small.  Which, considering the state of 
the WW at the time of his birth, isn't that odd, actually.)

> >>Neri:
> My reasoning is based on comparing the size of the potions NEWT   
> class to the size of other NEWT classes, and this has nothing to   
> do with the total number of students in Harry's year. IOW, if the 
> potions NEWT class is 12/40 of the students in this year, the DADA 
> class is still 25/40 or more than twice as much. Insert any number 
> you like instead of 40 and this is still true.

Betsy Hp:
Oh that definitly works.  But you're ignoring the lower requirements 
for getting into DADA.  Potions is a more elite NEWT.
 
> >>Neri:
> The potions NEWT requirement during the HBP year is EE. Ron and
> Hermione and Neville got into the DADA class with EE. Do you see   
> Snape adopting a lower standard than Slughorn and McGonagall for   
> his new class? 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes.  It's wand waving, isn't it?  Snape has always stated that 
Potions is harder than other subjects, so it would be consistent to 
his character and to the subjects as they've been explained to us.

> >>Neri:
> Would Draco get an Outstanding in Potions? We have five years worth
> information on him in potions class. Can you point me a single    
> example of him showing any excellence?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Snape is constantly pointing out how good Draco is at Potions.  It 
annoys Harry to no end.  It often gets written off as Snape sucking 
up to Draco (which I've always wondered, why?) but if Snape is going 
on about the perfect color of Draco's potion I think we can assume 
Draco has achieved a perfect color.  Especially since it's not 
pointed out that the color isn't actually perfect.

> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> If Draco had been shown to be having trouble in Potions then yes, 
> I would wonder about him getting an O, and the narrator would no   
> doubt say how that happened. But since Draco has consistently been 
> shown to have no trouble in Potions, which has nothing to do with 
> sucking up to Snape, I see no reason to think he can't have an O. 
> It's not something the narrator needed to foreshadow that much.
 
Betsy Hp:
Exactly.  Just as, if Snape is really supposed to be a terrible 
teacher, instead of dropping bits of praise (the Umbridge scene, the 
comment about Snape handling a classroom as well as McGonagall) I 
think JKR would give examples of Snape failing as a teacher.

I mean, JKR certainly doesn't beat around the bush regarding Snape's 
sarcasm and cruelty, so why would she suddenly get coy regarding his 
teaching abilities?

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Of course it is.  It's the most elite NEWT course that we've    
> > seen.  

> >>Neri:
> <snip of canon>
> If these are the elite, the WW is in trouble.

Betsy Hp:
When you're elite, you need to push yourself beyond your comfort 
zone.  That's the point of trial and error, and actually it points 
to these students being good enough to strike out on their own.  
Even the Prince had his failures. <g>

Betsy Hp