Scary Teachers - Good Teachers (was: Re: Hagrid and Snape...)

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 153042

> Magpie:
> Yes, I think Draco could easily have gotten an Outstanding in 
> Potions, because getting an O on an OWL does not, as you seem to be 
> suggesting, mean he must have been performing miracles and awing the 
> class, or even that the narrator must be consistently telling us that 
> Draco's doing really well on this or that Potion.  It just means he's 
> one of the A students in a demanding class.  If Draco had been shown 
> to be having trouble in Potions then yes, I would wonder about him 
> getting an O, and the narrator would no doubt say how that happened.  
> But since Draco has consistently been shown to have no trouble in 
> Potions, which has nothing to do with sucking up to Snape, I see no 
> reason to think he can't have an O. It's not something the narrator 
> needed to foreshadow that much.

Neri:
Perhaps you are drawing on your RL experience here, but it doesn't
seem to fit with canon. If it did, then Harry would have had an O in
CoMC, which he never had any trouble with, and Hermione would have had
an O in DADA. The fact is, the only two O grades that the narrator
told us about except for Hermione's are Harry's in DADA and Neville's
in Herbology, and in both these cases we were consistently shown that
the student has a real flare for the specific subject.

Now, had the narrator told us that some of the Ravenclaws have an O in
potions without any foreshadowing it would have been perfectly
consistent, IMO, because Harry didn't have any opportunity to see them
at potions before and wouldn't know about it. But the narrator has
given us plenty of information throughout the series about Draco in
potions and I'm still waiting for a single canon that he has any flare
for the subject. 

And notably, the narrator *was* consistent in showing Draco sucking up
to the teacher. Just five minutes into his first assignment in the
NEWT class he tried sucking up to Slughorn. If the narrator can be
bothered with foreshadowing and aftershadowing Draco sucking up in
potions, surely she can also be bothered with showing he's good at it?   


> Betsy Hp:
> The actual number of students in Harry's class isn't really Flinty, 
> IMO.  *Everything* in canon supports the number being around 40 
> total.  

Neri:
Except for JKR herself:

****************************************************************
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-2.htm

I never consciously thought, "That's it, that' s all the people in his
year,"
****************************************************************

I believe this statement is canon too. Meta-canon, actually, but
meta-canon is still canon.


> Betsy Hp:
> Speculation is fun, but it is just speculation.  If JKR wanted to 
> show Snape as a dismal failure as a teacher, I doubt she'd have left 
> it up to readers to make up informational columns in the WW's 
> newspaper that Hermione chooses to ignore.

Neri:
Er... this kind of reasoning works in both directions, you know. If
JKR wanted to show that Snape's nastiness in class produces results, I
doubt she'd have left it up to her readers to calculate the ratio
between 10 NEWT students that are never explicitly said to get Os and
the total number of students in the year that she admits herself she
never consciously thought about. But as you say, speculation is fun <g>.


> > >>Betsy Hp:
> > > Basically then, you're arguing that all the other students in 
> > > Harry's class know more about what's going on at Hogwarts than   
> > > Harry does.
> 
> > >>Neri:
> > Yup. Harry never knows about these things.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Really?  I'd love some sort of canon on that.  Because I don't 
> recall a time where some massive change occured at Hogwarts and 
> Harry was clueless, Ron was clueless, and even more importantly, 
> *Hermione* was clueless, but all the other Hogwarts students of 
> their class knew exactly what was going on.

Neri:
Don't you exaggerate a bit with the "massive change"? However, if you
really need canon for clueless Ron and Harry, well gee, where to
begin? Here's one typical example: 

***************************************************************
GoF, Ch. 10:
"Mum, you've given me Ginny's new dress," said Ron, handing it out to her.
"Of course I haven't," said Mrs. Weasley. "That's for you. Dress robes."
"What?" said Ron, looking horrorstruck.
"Dress robes!" repeated Mrs. Weasley. "It says on your school list
that you're supposed to have dress robes this year
 robes for formal
occasions."
****************************************************************

Now, can you imagine what would have happened if Mrs. Weasley hadn't
spotted this detail in the school list? We would probably have later a
conversation at Hogwarts that would go something like this:

**************************************************************
GoF, a fanfiction dialogue:

McGonagall: Potter -- a word, if you please. Traditionally, the
champions and their partners open the Yule ball in their dress robes.

Harry: Dress robes? 

McGonagall: Yes, Potter, dress robes. Robes for formal occasions.

Harry: But you see, Professor, I don't have dress robes and Ron
doesn't either. We didn't realize...

McGonagall: That's not a problem. I'm sure Filch will be able to lend
you some.
****************************************************************

And naturally, all the *other* students would have their dress robes
ready with them, just as they did in the original version of GoF.
Including Hermione, who had a smashing dress robe herself and
apparently never thought to check with Ron and Harry that they hadn't
forgot theirs. But luckily, Harry wasn't supposed to find some old
clue in Filch's dress robe, and so Mrs. Weasley was called to the rescue. 


Neri