Draco's potion making skills WAS: Scary Teachers - Good Teachers

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 153105

> Alla:
> 
> That's the thing though - to me
> Neville does not show that Draco exaggerates here, although it
> certainly can be read that way, I understand, I just don't see the
> reason to discard the other possibility.
> 
> Magpie:
> But what is the other possibility and why isn't it revealed later? 
> That Marchbanks is actually best buds with the Malfoys and so 
fixing 
> exams?

Alla:

Not necessarily, NO, just the fact that she was at Malfoys house for 
dinner.



> Magpie:
> I don't understand how there are no signs in canon that he got an O
> on his test when he's sitting there with his books in Advanced
> Potions. Draco's always being cocky in Potions, going along fine in
> class as a favorite with Severus "I expect results" Snape--why 
would
> it need special explanation? He's not parting the Red Sea here, 
he's
> just getting a lot of the questions right on a test and mixing a
> Potion correctly.

Alla:

Isn't it the whole point though? That to get an "O" in Snape class 
is so very hard, that is why he such a good teacher. If it is  hard, 
Draco must be not just good, but outstanding student in Potions and 
yes, to me that needs foreshadowing, not just him sitting with the 
book, but him actually doing something very complicated.


 
> Magpie:
> No, sorry if I wasn't clear.  I think that Draco's being good in
> Potions is part of his ongoing relationship with Snape--I think his
> relationship with Snape also probably gives him reason to want to 
do
> well in the class. I can't imagine Snape having a favorite who 
wasn't
> performing up to his standard, but I don't think that means Draco 
is
> Snape's favorite because he wowed him in Potions.  We know he's
> connected to Draco's father, and they seem to also like each other
> personally.

Alla:

Oh, Okay, I am glad that we agree that Snape favors Draco because of 
his personal connections.

The only thing we seem to disagree on is that Snape will not have  
favorite not performing to his standards. I mean, it is possible of 
course, I just need the signs.

We do see though Snape favoring other Slytherins, not just Draco , 
no?

I doubt that they all are up to Snape standards, personally.


 
> Magpie:
> Draco *likes* Snape, so what Harry sees as sucking up does not have
> to be that.  We never see him manipulating anything out of Snape
> through flattery (or anybody managing to do that with Snape!) or 
even
> needing to in class. The OWLS are independent of Snape, and I think
> rather than two separate explanations for why he's not really as 
well
> as suggested it's easier to just put the two things together, since
> they don't conflict.

Alla:

But why what is shown as sucking up is not that? What are you basing 
this on?

On the contrary, we see that Draco is sucking up to EVERYBODY, as 
Neri argued, we see a PATTERN.

I mean, to Mcgonagall, to Slughhorn, etc. That is what Draco does. I 
mean I understand that Draco sucking up to Snape weakens Darco is a 
good student argument, but we see him doing it on the regular basis 
to other teachers.

Are you just saying that Draco does not really suck up to Snape 
because of unreliable narrator again?
If so, unfortunately I don't find it convincing. Sorry!
If Draco did not demonstrate the pattern of such behaviour, that 
would be a bit different story, IMO.

Oh, and we do see Draco  trying to flatter Snape in class. Are you 
saying that this is can be read as something else, not sucking up?

"Sir," said Malfoy loudly. "Sir, why don't you apply for 
Headmaster's job?"
"Now, now, Malfoy" said Snape, though he couldn't suppress  a thin-
lipped smile. "Professor Dumbledore has only been suspended by the 
governors. I daresay he'll be back with us soon enough>"

"Yeah, right," said Malfoy, smirking. "I expect you'd have  Father's 
vote, sir, if you wanted to apply for the job - I'll tell Father 
you're the best teacher here, sir ---" - CoS, paperback, p.267.


> Alla:
> And how differently Snape favor would come across if Darco was not 
a
> good student in your opinion?
> 
> Magpie:
> Snape would be frustrated and having to excuse Draco's not doing
> well.  His favoritism would conflict with Draco's performance.  
Harry
> would love it.  I don't know if Snape could stand it.:-)  Actually,
> Snape/Draco seems to sometimes provide a bit of an alternate
> Harry/DD.  Both men may have set out with an agenda for the boy in
> question but wound up relating in unexpected ways once the boy was 
a
> real person in front of them.


Alla:

Oh, Okay, I understand your reasoning. Thanks.


Irene:

> I would not go there if I were you. :-) The whole "Snape is a 
rotten 
> teacher" theory based largely on the fact that Harry and Neville 
> performed better when he was not present during the exam. I 
remember you 
> and other listees of the similar disposition mentioning this point 
many 
> times. Now, the whole "performed better" thing is only meaningful 
if 
> OWLs results are impartial and objective.

Alla:

Your memory is very good. :) But the "Snape is rotten teacher 
theory" ( or at least my interpretation of it) is based on five 
years of Snape mistreating Harry and Neville in class, NOT just that 
they performed much better without him being there.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't deny that this fact is a very 
nice support for this argument as I see it, but really, many Snape 
fans argued the exact opposite BECAUSE of that fact ( although I 
could never grasp how it works) - that since Snape was not there and 
Harry and Neville performed better, it means that Snape taught them 
well.

So, what I am trying to say is that the relevance of this fact for 
Snape as a rotten teacher is really not huge, as I said it is NICE, 
but say Harry and Neville would not have gotten good results on 
their OWLS, that would mean to me that Snape mistreating them in 
class 
prevented them to do better. See, the fact that they achieved good 
results without Snape is great, but it works regardless.

Anyways, back to Draco's potion skills.


Irene:
<SNIP>
 If Marchbanks can be 
> influenced by bribes and friendly dinners, then this whole 
argument goes 
> down the drain, don't you see? Harry and Neville passed their 
potions 
> OWL because she likes Harry, and she is friends with Neville's 
granny, 
> but they are really as rubbish in Potions as Snape always thought.
> See, aren't you better off allowing Malfoy to have his 'O'? :-)

Alla:

Um, I already agreed upthread that yes, it is unlikely that 
Marchbank takes bribes, what I don't see as unlikely is Malfoys 
trying to lure her in, attempting to do so.

When Draco is not on the "inside" information, we hear him say so ( 
as in CoS, about Slytherin Heir), I am sort of inclined to believe 
him here.

I mean, I believe Neville too - that Marchbank never mentions 
Malfoys. 

But the original point of this discussion was not even that OWLS 
were unobjective ( or maybe I got confused again), but that Draco 
did not get an "O", so I think I am still Okay, if I allow Draco to 
have his "EE", no?

Alla