Soul bits (Was: CHAPDISC: HBP 23, Horcruxes)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 160844

Carol earlier:
> IMO, the diary is the only Horcrux that contains a memory, in this
> case specifically the memory of Tom Riddle's sixteen-year-old self,
> which is much like a memory removed from Snape's or Dumbledore's
head and placed in a Pensieve. No part of their soul goes with it, it
is only an objective memory that others can enter (as opposed to a
> subjective, written memory that a Muggle would enter into a diary).
> The whole reason the memory is placed there is to interact with a
> reader and perhaps show that reader Tom's "heroic" action in
> apprehending the "culprit," Hagrid, and his monstrous friend.
> 
> No other Horcrux is intended to be interactive. They exist only to
> house a soul bit and keep it earthbound. Soul bits do not in
> themselves contain memories, IMO.
> 
> Debbie:
> We don't have any real canon either way, so I can't prove that my
opinion is correct.  However, dictionary definitions of "soul" support
the idea that a soul includes memory.  From my desktop Websters:  "1.
 an entity which is regarded as being the immortal or spiritual part
of the person and, though having no physical or material reality, is
credited with the functions of thinking and willing, and hence
determining all behavior  2. the moral or emotional nature of man"  As
our memories, i.e., our past influence our thinking, our future
actions and our moral perspective, memory seems intertwined with the
concept of soul. <snip>

Carol again:
The problem is, there are many different conceptions of soul, and the
one you're quoting is somewhat medieval. Modern people, including
wizards, know that memories are in the mind. Otherwise, they couldn't
remove memories from their minds. And, as I said, Snape, Dumbledore,
and Slughorn remove memories from their minds with no damage to their
souls. The etymology of "Legilimency" and "Occlumency" both of which
relate to memories, ties them to mind, not soul. IMO, the memory (or
memories) that Tom placed in the diary are like those we see Snape and
Dumbledore taking from their heads and are separate from the soul bit
that was encased using a Horcrux-creating spell. If Dumbledore placed
a memory in a diary, even if he intended that memory to be read and
shared (like a Pensieve memory or the memory of Tom "catching"
Hagrid), would that memory be capable of possessing the reader? I
don't think so.

> 
Carol earlier:
> As to why Harry thought he "knew" Tom Riddle from his childhood,
> possibly that's part of the charm placed on the diary, something to
> entice a reader into opening it and interacting with it. Ginny, an
> eleven-year-old girl who wanted a confidante and loved the idea of a
> diary, may not have needed such a spell, but how many schoolboys
keep a diary? There had to be some sort of charm on the diary to keep
it from being thrown away (rather like the hex or curse Ron mentions
that forces a person to keep reading a particular book).
> 
> Debbie:
> That's a plausible explanation, too (though I like mine better) for
why Harry thought he "knew" Tom.  However, on the need to prevent the
diary from being thrown away, Ginny herself threw it away.

Carol again:

Sorry to be unclear. I meant a spell to keep the diary from being
thrown away unread, a spell to entice the reader to open the diary and
interact with it even after they discovered that the pages were blank.
How many people would keep a diary from fifty years ago with someone
else's name on it and (apparently) nothing written in it, especially
boys, who (these days) don't often keep diaries? We need to remember
the original purpose of the diary. Unless someone actually wrote in
it, the Basilisk would not be released.
> 
Carol earlier:
> As I say, soul bits and memories don't necessarily go
> together, and Harry's sense of familiarity on encountering Tom
> Riddle's name may have nothing to do with a real memory in himself.
It certainly is not an association between Tom Riddle and Voldemort.
> 
> Debbie:
> I'm probably missing your meaning here, but why would Voldemort's
soul bit not be associated with Tom Riddle?  Despite all the magical
transformations, they are still one and the same, no?

Carol again:
I meant there's no association in Harry's mind at this time between
Tom Riddle and Voldemort, so he wouldn't know just from the name whose
the diary was. Again, I think the sense that Tom Riddle is a friend
from his childhood has nothing to do with Harry's (or Tom's) memories.
I think it's the enchantment on the diary, the same enchantment that
Ginny succumbed to. She, too, thought of Tom as a friend--much more so
than Harry did.
> 
> Carol:
> We need to remember the original reason that the diary was created, to
> "carry on Salazar Slytherin's noble work." As Harry says, Tom didn't
> want his efforts in finding and opening the Chamber of Secrets to go
> for nothing. And as DD (IIRC) says, he wanted to be known as
> Slytherin's Heir. Note the reactions of Tom's "friends" when Slughorn
> says, "It couldn't be clearer that you come from good wizarding
> stock." Their winking, nudging, and simpering indicate that they know
> exactly which wizarding line Tom comes from.
> 
> Debbie:
> IIRC, you've written a number of times that the diary was created
first to open the chamber and was made into a horcrux later.  I don't
recall that the timeline is that definitive; we know only that Riddle
opened the chamber at the end of his fifth year (when he was already
16, since we know he was born in the winter).  He knew it wasn't safe
to open the chamber and so created the diary sometime after that,
enclosing the memory he shows Harry in CoS, to "carry on Salazar
Slytherin's noble work."  According to the Lexicon
> timeline,
> 
> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/timeline.php
> 
> he turned the diary into a horcrux the following September, having
murdered his father and grandparents in the summer.  There is no
indication that he had already encased the one memory into it.  Is
there a particular bit of canon you're relying on? <snip>

Carol:
Tom says himself that he created the diary to carry on Salazar
Slytherin's noble work because he could no longer open the CoS
himself. (Surely I don't need to find the quote as it should be
thoroughly familiar to everyone on the list. Even the movie got that
one right.) I infer from those words that he made the diary right
away, before he murdered his parents. I agree with the Lexicon that he
murdered his parents the following summer, but he could not have made
a Horcrux until after the visit to Slughorn (in, IMO, his sixth year),
when he was wearing the ring, and even then he didn't have sufficient
information to create a Horcrux. He had the ring, which possibly had
powers, and the diary, a powerful magical object he had created
himself, and he had committed multiple murders. But "there is a spell.
Don't ask me!" hardly gives him the information he needed to perform
that spell. I think that he must have learned it either from
Grindelwald in 1945, before Dumbledore destroyed Grindelwald's Horcrux
(who else could the wizard be that both Tom and DD knew about who'd
made one Horcrux) or from Borgin and Burke's (or some book shop in
Knockturn Alley). All we know for sure is that he'd made at least one
and probably two Horcruxes before he murdered Hepzibah Smith for more
Horcrux objects and that he preferred powerful magical objects. As
Dumbledore said, the diary was proof that he was the Heir of Salazar
Slytherin and was as valuable to him as the ring or the cup. I infer
from that that it was already powerfully magical. Over and over again
in CoS we hear that its purpose was to release the Basilisk and kill
Muggleborns. That's what Tom told both Lucius Malfoy and Harry. I
think he made it into a Horcrux later, when he needed powerful magical
objects but at that time had only the diary and the ring.

At any rate, JKR is less than clear on the time frame and it's
possible that the Lexicon is correct, but its editors are speculating
and theorizing just like we are.

Carol, sure that memories and soul bits are distinct and that Harry
has not entered bits of Snape's or Dumbledore's soul