[HPforGrownups] Soul bits (Was: CHAPDISC: HBP 23, Horcruxes)

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 160903

Carol:
The problem is, there are many different conceptions of soul, and the
one you're quoting is somewhat medieval. Modern people, including
wizards, know that memories are in the mind. Otherwise, they couldn't
remove memories from their minds. And, as I said, Snape, Dumbledore,
and Slughorn remove memories from their minds with no damage to their
souls. The etymology of "Legilimency" and "Occlumency" both of which
relate to memories, ties them to mind, not soul.

Debbie:
I'll readily admit that my conception of the soul is somewhat medieval.
However, I see the soul as a religious concept, and it just hasn't changed
much since the Middle Ages, even if the word has taken on new meanings.  I
even consulted my catechism, which states that man is a unity of body and
soul, and further states that death separates the soul from the body.  The
mind, which is not even mentioned must be part of the soul.

I was going to declare a draw, but Neri has reminded me of the canon that
supports my definition of soul as including memory (as a general
proposition, at least).

Carol:
IMO, the memory (or
memories) that Tom placed in the diary are like those we see Snape and
Dumbledore taking from their heads and are separate from the soul bit
that was encased using a Horcrux-creating spell. If Dumbledore placed
a memory in a diary, even if he intended that memory to be read and
shared (like a Pensieve memory or the memory of Tom "catching"
Hagrid), would that memory be capable of possessing the reader? I
don't think so.

Debbie:
The Pensieve memories (as well as Riddle's memories)  clearly can be
separated from a person and played like a videotape.  However, that doesn't
necessarily prevent other memories from remaining with the soul.

Carol:
Tom says himself that he created the diary to carry on Salazar
Slytherin's noble work because he could no longer open the CoS
himself. (Surely I don't need to find the quote as it should be
thoroughly familiar to everyone on the list. Even the movie got that
one right.)

Debbie:
I'm not sure that we can trust Tom's word on this one.  I don't think he was
lying; he just wasn't telling the whole truth.  Carrying on Slytherin's work
was one function of the diary, but it wasn't the only one, and Tom certainly
wasn't going to tell Harry about the diary's Horcrux function.

Carol:
I infer from those words that he made the diary right
away, before he murdered his parents. [snip] At any rate, JKR is less than
clear on the time frame and it's
possible that the Lexicon is correct, but its editors are speculating
and theorizing just like we are.


Debbie:
As for when the diary was created, there's no canon on that one, and while
Tom *could* have put the memory in the diary right away, there are equally
good reasons to conclude that he did not do it right away.  (For one thing,
I don't think he had a blank diary at Hogwarts, so he likely didn't buy the
diary until the summer.)

Debbie


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