Canon for OFH!Lucius

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 160939

> > Neri:
> > Hmmm, it seems to me that you don't compare Lucius and Snape on 
equal 
> > footing here. You compare Canon!Lucius against DDM!Snape. No 
wonder 
> > you find that Lucius is more OFH. That's basically managing to 
prove 
> > what you were assuming from the outset.
> > 
> > If you want to be fair to Lucius you need to compare Canon!Lucius 
> > against Canon!Snape. In this case killing Dumbledore would hardly 
> > appear "rigid" of Snape.
> 
> Pippin:
> Now, now. Canon doesn't prove Snape killed Dumbledore.

Neri:
Canon also doesn't "prove" that Lucius slipped the diary to Ginny for 
his own ends rather than in order to destroy one of Voldemort's 
Horcruxes (which was the actual result). Canon doesn't "prove" that 
Lucius failed in retrieving the prophecy unintentionally.


> Pippin:
> Quite
> the contrary. Dumbledore's blood cries out from the ground, and
> what it cries is that Snape is innocent. You may speculate of
> anti-coagulants, poetic license or Flints, but the straightforward
> reading is that Dumbledore was alive when he hit the ground and
> for some thirty minutes afterwards. Blood will tell. Specifically,
> a trickle of blood that can be wiped away thirty minutes after
> a man is supposed to have died.
> 

Neri:
Well, I suspect that if a legion of Lucius fans were working for 
years to get Lucius off the hook, they would have found an 
equally "straightforward" reading that Lucius is DDM too. Probably 
several incompatible readings, which would have nonetheless made 
Lucius appear in a rather good light overall.


> Pippin:
> But if you insist that Snape did kill Dumbledore despite this,
> then the most obvious reading is ESE!Snape, who never left
> Voldemort's service at all and is thus has more traction than
> DDM!Snape could ever have.
> 

Neri:
He saved Dumbledore in the beginning of the year and blasted him off 
the tower in its end. That hardly appears "rigid", you know. Of 
course you can have a theory why DDM!Snape (or ESE!Snape) was 
actually having the same goals and loyalties behind both these acts, 
but then you'd be again comparing DDM!Snape (or ESE!Snape) against 
Canon!Lucius, so of course Lucius would appear more OFH. This match 
is fixed to begin with.

Well, Dungrollin claims that even DDM!Snape is more slippery than 
Lucius. I tend to agree with her but I'm not sure I can peruse this 
line of argument myself, since I hardly know what DDM!Snape actually 
did or didn't do. There are dozens of different versions of him 
running around. Which is why I'd rather resort to canon when trying 
to decide who's slippery.


> Pippin:
> But perhaps we mean different things by slippery.
> If Snape remains loyal to one character or side  and is
> deceiving everyone else, that is slimy but not slippery, IMO.
> Slippery means to me that allegiance shifts as a 
> matter of convenience. I think Canon!Lucius wins that one 
> hands down. 
> 

Neri:
If the *apparent* allegiance of a man shifts around, and still he 
manages to stay alive and even come better off all the time, then I'd 
say he's entitled to be called slippery. Maybe he's loyal to just one 
side in his heart, and he puts himself in terrible risks for The 
Cause, but still he repeatedly comes better off himself. So even if 
he never intended to be slippery, I'd say he has a great natural 
talent for it <g>. 

I mean, lets look at all of Snape's comrades on both sides, headed by 
the "slippery" Lucius, and what has become of them:

Lucius: in Azkaban, with his family at the mercy of Voldemort.
Bella: many years in Azkaban, recently lost Voldemort's good opinion.
Avery: lost Voldemort's good opinion.
Rookwood: 14 years in Azkaban and is now back there.
Karkaroff: some time in Azkaban, 1 year on the run, now dead.
Rosier: dead.
Wilkes: dead.
Crouch Jr: Azkaban, imperiused for years, now soul sucked.
Regulus Black: dead.
Peter Pettigrew: 12 years as a rat, donated his hand to Voldemort.
James: dead.
Lily: dead.
Sirius: 12 years in Azkaban, now dead.
Lupin: an outcast and unemployed.
Frank: tortured to insanity. 
Alice: tortured to insanity.
Moody: lost a leg and an eye, 1 year in a trunk.
Dumbledore: dead.
Voldemort: 12 years as less than a spirit, 1 year as an ugly baby. 

The only person who was in the thick of it all this time, changed his 
(apparent and/or real) allegiances twice, was actually a double agent 
for years, and yet was never in Azkaban or imeriused or unemployed or 
worse, is Snape. That's slippery, man.


> Pippin:
> In contrast, the canon  case for OFH!Snape
> is terribly weakened by Spinner's End. There's just no
> reason for OFH!Snape to take that vow, which is why
> Bella is simply astounded when it happens.
> 

Neri:
Bella obviously isn't very familiar with Snape and his personal 
motivations. OTOH Narcissa, who even knows where he lives, does not 
look astounded at all when he takes the vow. She knew that he'll help 
her despite the Dark Lord orders, she knew how to go about asking 
him, and she proved correct. Do you think Narcissa knows that Snape 
is DDM? If not, then it appears she knows of other motivations Snape 
has to take the vow.


> Pippin: 
> <snip> Even if we go with 
> ACID POPS, again we have a Snape whose true loyalty 
> is to Narcissa, not one with no true loyalty at all. 
> 

Neri:
If Snape's loyalty were to Narcissa, he would have gone to her 
himself, as soon as he was brought into the plan, and offer to help 
Draco. Snape was ready to help Draco, but he first required Narcissa 
to come to him and go down on her knees, and it seems she knew that. 
So it looks like Bella and Narcissa both agree that Snape is OFH. The 
only difference is that Narcissa is better acquainted with his 
personal motivations.


Neri