Moral Relativism (was:Re: witches of the world...

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 160958

[SPOILER WARNING: I give away the ending to "Return of the Jedi" 
towards the end of this post.]

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I'm not looking at who loves Narcissa.  I'm looking at who and   
> > how she loves. 
> > <snip>

> >>Alla:
> Yes, I should have said and whom they love of course. See, as I    
> said in the post which is the edited version of the one you       
> replied to, mother's love to her son is something which is soo    
> very essential part of human nature in my view that by itself it   
> really does not impress me much.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
As you say in the bit I snipped, mothers are supposed to love their 
children.  But it's still a good thing.  I mean, don't you think 
well of someone who takes a risk to protect their child?

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> And there is nothing else I see in Narcissa to admire. She loves   
> her flesh and blood, big deal.

Betsy Hp:
I guess, yes for me, that is a big deal. Because Narcissa didn't 
just passively love Draco.  She actively took a risk, went against 
Voldemort (her team in a sense) to protect him.  That wasn't a 
neutral action.

> >>Alla:
> I am serious here. Show me who else Narcissa loves, who does not   
> support *purebloods rule, everybody can drop dead** philosophy.

Betsy Hp:
Why such a stringent hoop? 

> >>Alla:
> At least somebody to whom Narcissa is not related by blood.

Betsy Hp:
And an even smaller one?  Narcissa risked her life to protect her 
son.  That *is* deep for me.  Plus, she's a minor character.  JKR is 
not going to have Narcissa running around saving random 
Muggleborns.  At least not until book 7. <eg>

> >>Alla:
> Heee, and we do know that she had no problem selling to Voldemort 
> somebody to whom she **is** related by blood, so her love to her   
> family looks quite limited to me.

Betsy Hp:
But wait, I thought you were arguing that protecting your blood 
isn't a good thing.  Sort of selfish because it's your blood? <eg> 

Also, what do we know?  We don't *know* that the DoM plan was "no 
problem" for Narcissa.  We can assume, but it's weaker, IMO, next to 
the cold, hard, fact that Narcissa took a risk in defying Voldemort 
to protect her son. 

Frankly, protecting Draco *wasn't* just going with the flow for 
Narcissa.  She was forced to choose between her son and her 
politics.  She chose her son.  I just don't get how that doesn't 
count.  Especially as the politics end up in the negative column.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > First, have we seen Lucius kill or torture anyone?
> > <snip>

> >>Alla:
> We had seen him watching Voldie torture Harry for example, I also 
> thought he was out for the blood in MoM.

Betsy Hp:
But that's not torturing or killing someone.  Interesting... 

> >>Betsy: 
> > Like when Darth Vader sacrificed himself to save his son.  It 
> > showed the goodness still in him and so Luke felt he'd won his   
> > father back from the Dark Side.  Despite all the people Vader   
> > had tortured and killed.

> >>Alla:
> I remember it a bit differently, because if it occurred that way, 
> I would not really be impressed with Vader's redemption. Wasn't   
> Luke sensing Vader struggle of good and bad in him way before     
> Vader sacrificed himself?
> That showed to me that good and bad fought in him on much bigger 
> scale than just when he decided to save Luke.
> Am I remember it wrong?

Betsy Hp:
Yeah, you are. <g>  I mean, *Luke* kept saying "there's good in him, 
I feel it" and Ben was all "you are *crazy*!" and Vader was 
all "kill that puppy!  torture that kitten! [Endor]" and "maybe I 
can turn Luke evil too, master!" and then Luke and Vader fought and 
the Emperor was all "kill your daddy or suffer!" and Luke went with 
suffer, and Vader finally had enough.  And he killed the Emperor and 
told Luke "tell your sister *gasp* you were right! *gasp*" and then 
he died and went to glow with Ben and Yoda.

But Yoda was all "Meh, so you saved your flesh and blood.  Big 
whoop." (Actually, I made that last bit up. <g>)

No, it really was choosing love for his children (I'll throw Leia in 
here) over the Dark Side.  

Again, I'm not saying Narcissa has reached a point where she and 
Dumbledore can glow together.  But the fact that she's selfless 
enough to put her child's safety over her loyalty to Voldemort 
suggests that she's not a heartless supporter of Death Eaters over 
all.  

Betsy Hp