Molly and Narcissa WAS: Hiding from Voldemort / Moral Relativism (was:Re: witches of the world...

[Charles Walker Jr]

No: HPFGUIDX 160964

> > >>Charles:
<SNIP>
>Simply
> > because we are not told Molly's activities it is *not* safe to
> > assume that they do not exist.
> > <snip>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> But I don't see those activities.  Which is my point.  <SNIP>

Charles:
You are ignoring the fact that Molly is doing something. She has
joined the forces aligned against Voldemort.

> > >>Charles:
> > To draw a parallell, your argument is like calling the support
> > sections of a military cowards because they aren't the ones
> > wielding the weapons-which is ridiculous.
> > <snip>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> When did I call Molly a coward?
>
Charles:
Okay, you did not necessarily call her a coward, but my point was,
and is, that support activities are necessary to any military action.
Instead of going off and whinging to her husband's friend, she's
joined the only force out there fighting the danger to her children.
Belittling the duties she is seen to perform doesn't change the fact
that they happen.

And I would like to know just what she does to undermine the order. I
really don't see that.

> > >>Charles:
> > And as far as it not being a choice she's made-how many people in
> > the wizarding world are members of the order?
> > <snip>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Yeah, but how many of Molly's family are members?
>
Charles:
Every adult. Arthur is not the individual who is asked to join the
order, Molly is. In the hospital wing in GOF DD says "There is work
to be done. Molly, am I right in thinking I can count on you and
Arthur?" Doesn't sound like she's a third wheel to me. Doesn't sound
like she's jumping on a bandwagon, but rather more like she's driving
it.

> > >>Phoenixgod2000
> > > And for the record she is going against the tide of one of
> > > her most beloved son's and her goverment--the goverment that
> > > feeds and clothes her family.
>
> > >>Betsy Hp:
> > > No she isn't.
> > > <snip>
>
> > >>Charles:
> > Yes, actually she is, at least in OotP. Percy and the ministry may
> > not be pro-Voldie, but they *are* anti-Dumbledore-again, at least
> > in OotP.
> > <snip>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Right, the way I see Molly (and erm, this won't be popular) she's
> basically weak and stupid.  So Arthur put his foot down and threw
> one of his son's out.  Molly's just going along.  She won't stand
up
> to Arthur when he takes a firm stand, but I seriously doubt Molly
is
> fully against the Ministry.  As Phoenixgod pointed out, Arthur is
> still working there.  She's probably against Fudge (as she's been
> for a while since she's been living under the pleasant lie that
> Arthur was shunted into Muggle relations against his will) but I
> doubt she's against the Ministry full stop.
>
Charles:
Molly is never shown in the books as weak. The closest we come is the
boggart in the drawing room. She fears the death of all of her
children and she has every right to. This is every paren't worst
fear. Hell, due to circumstances beyond my control I barely know my
daughter, but if I were to come across a boggart there's every chance
that I'd see about the same thing-and have about the same reaction.
(Then again, I'm a major arachnophobe...)

Molly consistently dominates Arthur. Percy fights with Arthur and
storms out shouting that he would make sure that no one connected him
with the family anymore. As far as cannon states it's Molly's opinion
that Arthur's Muggle obsession is what's held him back at the
ministry. That she doesn't use her dominant position to get him to
move to a better job is a mark of her integrity. Canon just doesn't
support the idea of a weak Molly. Stupid-well, I wouldn't necessarily
call her stupid, but she is still using Lockhart books in OotP. :-)

Betsy:
> It's the same reason I think Molly's favorite sons have always been
> the twins.  I think she sees them as proper boys -- all piss and
> vinegar.  Poor Percy tried for years to become Molly's beloved by
> doing everything she *said* she wanted a perfect son.  But the
twins
> followed her actions, and they took top spot.  (I wouldn't be
> surprised if they're a lot like her brothers were.)
>

Charles:
Ah, but the scene when Ron gets his prefect badge blows that notion
out of the water. If the twins were really her favorites, she would
not have done the "everyone in the family" bit. (That scene must have
thrilled a couple of people around here as Ginny should have taken
offense as well.)

> > >>Charles:
> > Here is where it falls down. What makes a person evil if it is not
> > their actions and ideas?
> > <snip>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Exactly.  I don't like Narcissa's beliefs.  But I do admire her
> actions.  A mother's love for her child is not an example of evil.
> At least, not IMO.
>

Charles:
No, but convincing someone to be a backup assasin is. No ifs, ands,
or buts- causing someone to make an unbreakable vow to commit murder
is a murderous intention in and of itself. It was unnecessary for the
protection of Draco. She is trying to further her cause.

A prediction for book 7 (out of the blue and probably won't happen
but I can hope, because it's been a suspicion of mine.): we will see
something that even Bellatrix doesn't know at this point- Narcissa
asked for the UV on Voldemort's orders.

> Betsy Hp:
> However, I think we also saw that Narcissa is first and foremost
> Draco's mother, *not* Voldemort's supporter.  She willingly
> undermined Voldemort's plan to protect her son.  (An example of
> someone putting Voldemort first is Bellatrix who was quite willing
> to sacrifice her nephew in the name of Voldemort's cause.)  I do
see
> a glimmer of goodness in Narcissa's decision to go to Snape.  And I
> admire her willingness to defy Voldemort to protect her son.
> Doesn't mean I don't recognize that she's a danger to Harry and has
> a bit further to go if she wants to become one of the white hats
> (which I'm not even sure she actually wants to do).

A bit further to go is an understatement. As I stated above, I think
that her fear wasn't Draco, it was Draco's *failure*. I'm not
claiming she does not care about her son, but implicit in her worry
of "He'll be killed!" is a silent "Then I'm next!" I guess what I'm
saying here is that she's not going to Snape just to save her son.
The proof is in the third condition of the vow.

Charles, who doesn't think that asking someone to perform the
assasination your son was ordered to perform is quite an admirable
feet.