Canon for OFH!Lucius

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 160996

Pippin wrote:
> LOL! You're telling me the DDM!Snape evidence is there because
> I went looking for it? Hah! If I had a talent like that I'd be out 
> prospecting for gold or looking for the next Google <g>
> 
> No, I may be misinterpreting the evidence, but I'm not the one
> who put it there. JKR did that. 
> 
> If we knew for sure that Snape was evil, there would be, 
> according to the author, no point in Book
> Seven. So, as there is weighty evidence that Snape is a 
> murderer, there must also be weighty evidence that he is not.
> 
> DDM!Snape and ESE!Snape are both Canon!Snape. If
> you want to say that Snape is more ambiguous than Lucius
> I'll certainly agree. But ambiguous is not the same as slippery.
<snip>

Carol responds:
Since I've already argued that the evidence for either OFH! or
ESE!Lucius is completely unambiguous, with none at all for DDM! (or
otherwise good) Lucius, while the evidence for Snape's loyalties can
be read either way, I'm sure you know (as if you didn't already) that
I agree with you there. At this point, almost any reading of Snape's
loyalties can be supported by canon (though I think OFH!Snape is more
probable than ESE!Snape if that means he was always secretly loyal to
Voldemort, and of course I see DDM!Snape as having the strongest case
of all, but I'm not going to repeat my arguments here).

What I'm wondering is whether you're defining "slippery" in the same
way as other readers. For myself, I'd say that it's a Slytherin
quality, common to Lucius Malfoy ("my slippery friend") and Snape
("slithering out of action) and to Tom Riddle, keeping his evil nature
secret through charms and wiles, and probably to Phineas Nigellus and
Salazar Slytherin himself. Even the Slytherin symbol (note the
resemblance of Slytherin to "Slither"), a snakes, suggests
slipperiness. ("Slimy," no. snakes aren't slimy. Snails and eels are.
and I'm surprised that a DDM!Snaper would call him slimy, with all the
disgusting qualities attached to that adjective.)

Back to Merriam-Webster online, which for all its deficiencies is the
handiest source of definitions available to me:

Main Entry: slip·pery
Pronunciation: 'sli-p(&-)rE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): slip·per·i·er; -est
Etymology: alteration of Middle English slipper
1 a : causing or tending to cause something to slide or fall <slippery
roads> b : tending to slip from the grasp <a slippery fish>
2 a : not firmly fixed : UNSTABLE b : not precise or fixed in meaning
: AMBIGUOUS, ELUSIVE
3 : not to be trusted : TRICKY
- slip·per·i·ness noun

So, if you're looking at definition 1(b) used figuratively, I'd say
that Lucius and Severus are equally slippery, with Lucius getting out
of a sentence to Azkaban by pleading the Imperius Curse and Severus
slipping away from ("slithering" out of) his duties as a Death Eater.
(Actually, I'd say that Severus is slipperier in that he's tricked one
side or the other for a long time; if the side he's tricked is
Voldemort's, I'd hardly call that slimy.) But, then, Lucius has been
posing as a respectable citizen until he's arrested at the DoM, and
had even been on the Hogwarts board of governors until he rather gave
himself away by threatening to curse people's families if they didn't
go along with the sacking of Dumbledore. So, IMO, both are slippery,
but Snape is more intelligent and more subtle. If you go with
definition 2(b), with its synonyms of "ambiguous" and "elusive," Snape
is the clear winner. Even definition 3 fits Snape best if the people
who can't trust Snape are Voldemort and his few genuinely loyal
supporters (reduced to one at the moment, AFAWK), or if Snape is ESE!
and Dumbledore was wrong about him (which I doubt, but which I admit
is possible because of the ambiguity, the slipperiness, if you will,
of the evidence both for and against him). Lucius, for all his ability
to fool Fudge and the Daily Prophet, doesn't fool the reader. If we're
not sure whether his loyalties lie with Voldemort or with himself or
some combination, at least we're sure that they don't lie with
Dumbledore or the Order, any more than he supports equality and
justice for all the inhabitants of the WW (to say nothing of us poor
Muggles).

As for "slimy," which you use to characterize Snape, Merriam-Webster
online gives us:

Main Entry: slimy
Pronunciation: 'slI-mE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): slim·i·er; -est
1 : of, relating to, or resembling slime : VISCOUS; also : covered
with or yielding slime
2 : VILE, OFFENSIVE

and "slime" itself (since what we have here is an incomplete definition):

Main Entry: 1slime
Pronunciation: 'slIm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English slIm; akin to Middle High
German slIm slime, Latin limus mud -- more at LIME
1 : soft moist earth or clay; especially : viscous mud
2 : a viscous, glutinous, or gelatinous substance: as a : a mucous or
mucoid secretion of various animals (as slugs and catfishes) b : a
product of wet crushing consisting of ore ground so fine as to pass a
200-mesh screen
3 : a repulsive or odious person

Vile? Offensive? Repulsive? Odious? Resembling mucous?

Eeurgh! as Lavender Brown would say.

Call Lucius slimy if you like, but DDM!Snape? Yes, he can be
unpleasant--sarcastic to everyone from Harry to Bellatrix, not to
mention Umbridge, Lockhart, and Wormtail, and sometimes unfair to his
students--but I think "odious" and "repulsive" and the rest are a bit
extreme (unless Snape turns out to be ESE! in which case I think
"stupid" or "insane" would be equally appropriate adjectives). I
really don't understand your logic.

Carol, who thinks that Bellatrix is odious and Umbridge repulsive, and
if anyone has traits resembling mucous, it's Wormtail