Harry's remorse (Re: CHAPDISC: HBP24,)/Help for a Newbie

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 161299

Magpie:
> I wasn't really talking about his being introspective.  Part of 
> the point of the novels are Harry learning and growing.  One can
> learn from experience without becoming Hamlet, if you know what I 
> mean. Draco is actually an interesting example in HBP, because in
> the past he's never been the poster child for learning from your 
> mistakes either, but I think plenty of young readers noticed that 
> this was something that made him seem dumb. His storyline in HBP 
> required more thinking about his actions.  

Jen:  Ah, I get your line of thought here.  In that case I may have 
to agree with your initial opinion of JKR wrapping up plot lines.  
The 'tiniest drop of pity mingled with his dislike' from Harry 
toward Draco in the White Tomb chapter (p. 596 Blooms.) may be all 
the internal growth we get from the events of HBP.  Or rather, 
likely there will be more to their relationship since the door is 
open a fraction now, I just can't see it taking the form of Harry 
reversing his opinions so much as something akin to Dumbledore 
inviting ex-DE Karkaroff to his school--a recognition that sometimes 
you have to work with people for a greater good even when you don't 
agree with his values.  "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" and all 
that. 

Magpie:
> Or just popping into my head--Ron in GoF gets angry at Harry etc., 
> and after they make up the narrator notes that Ron seems like he's 
> being extra loyal to Harry because he seems to still feel badly 
> about his behavior.  It seems like Ron actually looked back on his 
> behavior and it meant something to him.  

Jen: It's so easy to do with a friend and so hard with an enemy.  I 
know you're just pointing out what you'd like to see happen with 
Harry to show growth, an actual change in behavior.  Once again my 
thoughts go back to that scene when he considers Draco's fate--he 
doesn't hate Draco *more* after the tower, and for Harry that's a 
change in attitude.  Plus, he actually wonders without malice what 
Voldemort is forcing Draco to do under threat of death to him and 
his parents. (This doesn't have much to do with the Sectumsempra 
scene because I can't see revisiting that scene other than perhaps 
an apology on Harry's part if/when he and Draco work together in 
Book 7. Maybe not even that.)

Magpie:
> It's not that Harry never learns anything, but I think he's got 
> certain patterns that trip him up or aren't exactly honest.  It's
> not that he never thinks about stuff again, it's often that he
> thinks about it enough to feel only comfortably justified or
> victimized and avoid anything that he might have done that wasn't
> so good.  

Jen: I not sure about 'often' here, in fact, many examples are 
springing to my mind:  Recognizing in the DOM battle he may have led 
his friends to certain death, realizing he was selfish to never 
wonder why Neville lived with Gran, feeling shame after Lupin 
corrects him over the ill-advised Hogsmeade visit, recognizing he 
was wrong not to try harder to get the memory for Dumbledore, 
feeling guilt over Cedric's death, identifying and understanding 
Snape's feelings more than James' in the Pensieve scene....gosh, 
there are so many more but that's a start.

He does have these patterns with Snape and Draco/Slytherins. JKR's 
depiction of his behavior with enemies is more believable to me than 
if Harry was always learning from his mistakes with these guys or 
recognizing his rationalizations.  After all, if the only people 
consistently telling you to rethink things are Snape and that 
dubious walking conscience, Hermione, it's pretty hard to get the 
honest feedback you need to consider changing. 

Magpie:
> Why I'm not sure is that sometimes I'm not sure if I'm supposed to 
> be noticing Harry's avoiding some conclusion or not.

Jen: A more than fair question to ask though I'm not sure of the 
answer!

Magpie:
> This is sort of TWT II: Harry should/shouldn't come in first in 
> every event. Some people see a sort of exchange going on, that 
> success in one area is made up by Harry's hard life in others.  To
> me it reads like two different things: Harry the hero who has 
> heroic challenges, and a more ordinary school story where
> Harry sometimes avoids normal disappointments of life. I think 
> this might have been brought up in discussions about the TWT, but
> at times it feels maybe artificial.

Jen: I see your point, the division of the story. Much as I love all 
the characters and the different genres JKR uses to weave her story, 
there are times when the overlap is disconcerting and confusing.  An 
answer for one genre doesn't always work for another and sometimes I 
wish for a tighter story at the expense of some of the 
inventiveness.  Probably the story wouldn't be nearly so fun to 
deconstruct, though.  

> Magpie:
> Heh. Your son is cool.:-)  I can't speak for how he feels, but to
> me what pulls me up in the scene is probably connected to my 
> expectations of cause and effect getting disappointed but not in a
> good way.  Like, it's originally set up that way with Harry's
> actions leading to him having to miss the game--it's every day 
stuff that every kid has probably had to deal with and accepts.  
When he 
> wins anyway I think it's almost more of a surprise like huh...oh. 
> It's anti-climactic. It almost doesn't feel like a win. 

Jen:  Once I read that JKR isn't writing any more Quidditch scenes 
that sort of explained it for me.  That one was for her, she 
couldn't quite bring herself to write the last game ever as a loss 
even if that would have been a better story or ethically more 
congruent or whatever.  Just a guess. (And my son is very cool, I 
can even forgive him for being an OFH!Snaper <g>.)

Magpie:
> Of course, when I read OotP the first time I actually mistakenly
> thought that Gryffindor came in second when the year was over to
> show my expectations there.  And even so that's the book that sort
> of destroyed any illusions of suspense in Quidditch anyway.

Jen: I'm worse than Hermione when it comes to caring about 
Quidditch.  When I heard there wasn't going to be any more it was 
like "hallelujah! No more suffering through *that*."  Thank goodness 
for Luna making the Quidditch in HBP bearable.

Jen R.