JKR and the boys

[Charles Walker Jr]

No: HPFGUIDX 161500

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miles" <miles at ...> wrote:
> justcarol67 wrote:
> > but after
> > all, these are kids' books and JKR is trying to limit the sexual
> > relationships to "snogging" and to leave any curse words worse 
than
> > "damn" unspecified.
> 
> Miles:
> This is really another topic. I think there would have been better 
ways than
> just ignoring sexuality at all.
>
Charles:
I don't see sexuality being ignored as such, I see it being shunted 
aside in order to push ahead the story. The snogging is all we see, 
because that is all that someone in the peer group is likely to let 
others see. I remember vividly Ginny's description of Ron and 
Lavender "Thrashing around like a pair of eels." *That* in my opinion 
is a big hint that there are further elements of sexuality in the 
castle we don't see.

> Charles Walker Jr wrote:
> > I think that one of the reasons we don't see a lot of those
> > interactions and rounded out character development is a time 
thing.
<snip>
> 
> Miles;
> I would not expect extra chapters, just small scenes - that would 
have been
> more than enough. Besides - why do you think the filmmakers, who 
had to cut
> lots of stuff from the books ADDED scenes that characterise boys 
and Harry
> as a boy among others? The dormitory scene, the twins giving Harry 
the map
> in PoA; the tent scene after the Quidditch final, the dancing scene 
with
> McGonagall in GoF. Obviously they missed something that is 
necessary for the
> plot - to show that Harry is member of a group of other boys. I 
miss this in
> the books, don't you?
> 
Charles:
Actually, I don't. I think that it is going on behind the scenes for 
the most part. Also, I think even if we did see it in the books, 
Harry would most likely be on the fringes of it because of the load 
he carries. As far as the scenes added in the movies (sorry List 
elves, one brief statement then I'll get off it.) I think they were 
more of something for the lowest common denominator- those who cannot 
deal with Harry being a boy without that kind of scene. (This is not 
intended as an insult, please don't take it as such.) As far as them 
having to cut stuff, they cut a lot of stuff they shouldn't have that 
will have to be dealt with in a new way to move parts of the story in 
OotP and HBP- the house elf stuff. 

Back to the topic at hand, I think that Harry is a boy, but not 
necessarily a member of a group other than the trio. I mean, his 
first year, he was trying to find out about the stone, his second, 
who was trying to kill muggleborns and what the strange voices he 
kept hearing were, and in his third he was worried about someone 
breaking into the castle past a horde of dementors to off him. Then 
comes fourth year, he gets thrown into yet another situation that 
threatens his life. After fourth year, he knows that his greatest 
enemy is back and trying to kill not just him, but a lot of other 
people. I think I can forgive Harry for not being a typical boy- he 
just doesn't have the bloody time. That is not to say that there is 
none of the stuff you're looking for behind the scenes, just that it 
wouldn't figure greatly in Harry's life, just as it doesn't figure in 
the books. 

Add to that the fact that not all boys have quite that kind of 
relationship with their friends. I didn't. Most of my relationships 
were with people like myself who read a lot and played with computers 
and electronics for fun. In short, geek relationships are a bit 
different. And let's face it, Harry is a sort of geek. A battle geek, 
yes, but he's got other things on his mind rather than trying to be 
normal and fit in, no matter how bad he wants to, or at least thinks 
he wants to. 

> Miles:
<snip> I don't think we can see Harry vs.
> Draco as "boy fights". They fight for Gryffindor and Slytherin, 
Good and
> Evil, Dumbledore and Voldemort - that's a different thing.

Charles:
No, Harry fights Draco because he insults Harry's mother as well as 
the Weasleys.

> Concerning sexuality - well, you can write about it in a way both 
kids and
> Puritans won't mind rather than not mention it at all. JKR can't, 
which is a
> pity.

Charles:
JKR does, but using subtextual clues rather than blatant mentions. 
Granted, this is a sensual rather than sexual description, but the 
whole time stop thing when Harry and Ginny first kiss is packed with 
sexuality. The whole "several sunlit days" thing is, I think as 
blatant as I'd want JKR to get.

> Miles:
> The only thing I ask for is a realistic insight into a boy's 
thoughts and
> social life. I do not mind about what a boy should be or not.
> 

Charles:
Harry is not a typical boy. I find his thought processes fairly 
realistic for the most part. I would say that other than being a 
wizard and a "savior" type, and the being raised by wicked relatives, 
I can identify readily with Harry when I think back on my childhood. 
(Then again, I knew I was atypical even then. I don't, however, think 
for a second that Harry was ever meant to be a typical teenager.)

> Miles:
> <snip> I spoke about fights IN the peer group. And not
> only physical fights - to see who is the "alpha Gryffindor" in his 
year, and
> in the entire House. Now, where do we see anything like that?
> 

Charles:
We don't see it, because Harry doesn't participate. He doesn't care 
to be anybody's leader, he wants peace in between fighting off murder 
attempts. And I will toot this bugle 'til I drop-not all boys behave 
like animals!

> Geoff Bannister wrote:
> > Coming up to the current thread, we have to remember that we are
> > only seeing part of the Hogwarts year. In Philosopher's Stone for
> > example, out of a 45-46 week year if you count the Christmas and
> > Easter holidays as well as the three terms, how much time do we
> > really share with the Trio?
> 
> Miles:
> I have to repeat what I posted earlier in this mail: The films are 
even
> shorter, but they show more "boy's social life" than the books. Why?
> 

Charles:
What you are calling "boys'social life" is the behavior that I 
disdained in my childhood. I hated the jerks who thought that beating 
people up was a good thing and there weren't any "I'm the boss 'cause 
I can beat you up" groups that I was part of. In fact, where I grew 
up, that tended to be limited to one particular subset of boys, we 
called them "jocks," and while the teachers and coaches loved them, 
the majority of the school couldn't stand them.

> Geoff Bannister cited:
> >> JKR nailed male relationships very well with this one. For
> >> women, a good friend is someone with whom they can cry,
> >> share emotions, discuss whatever. To a man (at least in
> >> Teens and Tweens) a good friend is someone who is there,
> >> shows loyalty and doesn't pry into emotional issues. The girls
> >> (Hermy, Cho, Jenny) are the one that keeps bringing up the
> >> topics Harry wants to avoid (death, dreams, etc). Neville's
> >> comment after Sirius dies is as intimate a question as any
> >> guy would get with another guy. If Ron were asking the
> >> questions that Hermione asks and Harry didn't blow his top,
> >> then I'd say the people who think Harry is light in the loafers
> >> may have a leg to stand on.
> 
> Miles:
> Who exactly are the male friends of Harry? Who are the boys he 
relates to in
> a non-superficial way? Where are the boys he is hanging around with 
apart
> from Quidditch practice and school lessons?
> 
Charles:
Ron- his best friend. Any others are incidental because Harry doesn't 
have that many friends. It is shown in several ways. Look at the 
train rides. He keeps looking for people to sit with because he does 
not have that many friends. It seems to be hard for people to fathom, 
but Harry isn't popular, even though he's famous.

> Miles, who really likes to see so many replies to his original 
post. It's so
> easy, just post a critical remark about JKR, and loads of people 
can't keep
> their fingers off the keyboards ;)
>

Charles: 
Spoken like a true troll, Miles.

Charles, who's sick of people claiming that to be male you have to 
act like a wild animal and fight for superiority all the time.