JKR and the boys

[Miles]

No: HPFGUIDX 161494

justcarol67 wrote:
> Now, I do think that Hermione did a good job of
> explaining Cho's complex feelings, but I'm not sure it was in
> character for her to do so. She shows very little empathy most of the
> time (e.g., her reaction to the death of Lavender's pet rabbit). The
> only feelings we see her express are hurt when Ron's words or actions
> offend her and anger and the desire for revenge on numerous occasions.

Miles:
My point is not whether Hermione is a positive character we can like. I
simply think her social and emotional capacities are described in a more
detailed and realistic way than those of Harry. I really don't see why it
should be out of character for her to know about Cho's feelings - she simply
talked to other girls, knows about how they feel in similar situations. We
quite often learn about her "life as a girl" in her peer group, not
directly, but through her talking about other girls.

justcarol67 wrote:
> I will say, though that there are reasons why Hermione would have a
> better grasp on some social situations than Ron and Harry despite
> being an only child. For one thing, she's a girl and girls mature
> earlier than boys, not to mention that she's almost a full year older
> than Harry. For another, she's probably been exposed to a wider social
> circle than either boy even though I'd guess that she's never been
> popular.

Miles:
Possible reasons, but does it really can make such a big difference, that
both boys are more or less foolish and she is doing quite well? I doubt -
there are good reasons for both Harry and Ron being a special kind of
experts concerning social behaviour, so I'd expect maybe an even game.

justcarol67 wrote:
> Maybe there are fewer fistfights and less
> swearing and sex talk than we'd expect among teenage boys,

Miles:
There are none!

justcarol67 wrote:
> but after
> all, these are kids' books and JKR is trying to limit the sexual
> relationships to "snogging" and to leave any curse words worse than
> "damn" unspecified.

Miles:
This is really another topic. I think there would have been better ways than
just ignoring sexuality at all.

justcarol67 wrote:
> Granted, most teenage boys don't ascribe their jealousy and sexual
> attraction to monsters in their insides, JKR's rather unfortunate and
> overused metaphor in HBP. But teenage romance is not her forte.

Miles:
It's a big black spot in her talent (which is otherwise extraordinary).

Charles Walker Jr wrote:
> I think that one of the reasons we don't see a lot of those
> interactions and rounded out character development is a time thing.
> What we need to remember is days and weeks of Hogwarts life are
> snipped out of the story because they just aren't that relevant to the
> ultimate story of Harry and Voldietwit having to eventually try to off
> each other face to face. (...)
> My point, I trust is clear. While some of the stuff that gets cut are
> things we'd love to know, they don't figure into the story she's
> ultimately trying to tell, and thus get the ax, either preemptively by
> not ever getting written, or in editing, either by JKR herself acting
> alone or in concert with her editors.

Miles;
I would not expect extra chapters, just small scenes - that would have been
more than enough. Besides - why do you think the filmmakers, who had to cut
lots of stuff from the books ADDED scenes that characterise boys and Harry
as a boy among others? The dormitory scene, the twins giving Harry the map
in PoA; the tent scene after the Quidditch final, the dancing scene with
McGonagall in GoF. Obviously they missed something that is necessary for the
plot - to show that Harry is member of a group of other boys. I miss this in
the books, don't you?

> Nicole:
> Did you read OOTP yet? Boys fighting?  Look at Harry & Draco &
> quidditch match?
> What you also have to realize in the sexuality part, is that she
> started this book for kids books that adults happen to read.  My 10
> year old has read up to HPB (just started) and he LOVES HP, but I can
> tell you if there was any thing sexual in them, he wouldn't be
> reading them, they wouldn't be in any school libraries, and the
> movies wouldn't be movies kids could go see.  She has to tone it
> down.  But you also have to remember, boys raised in cuboards
> probably lack a little experience in the girls vs. boys department.

Miles:
I read all the books at least twice. I don't think we can see Harry vs.
Draco as "boy fights". They fight for Gryffindor and Slytherin, Good and
Evil, Dumbledore and Voldemort - that's a different thing.
Concerning sexuality - well, you can write about it in a way both kids and
Puritans won't mind rather than not mention it at all. JKR can't, which is a
pity.

> bboyminn:
> I see this /mistake/ being made many many times with
> regard to artists, social commentators, and authors in
> the real world, some how the overly liberal 'do gooders'
> (no offense intended to anyone) some how think it is this
> /persons/ job to create a universally postive universally
> complete portrayal of whatever the 'objector' is objecting
> to. Sadly, it is NOT.

Miles:
The only thing I ask for is a realistic insight into a boy's thoughts and
social life. I do not mind about what a boy should be or not.

> bboyminn:
> JKR's job is not to create a univerally positive and
> universally complete picture of ALL boy and ALL girls. It
> is her job to create the characters of Hermione, Ron, and
> Harry along with their /individual/ personalities /within/
> the confines and context of the story.

Miles:
And she fails with "her" boys. Each individual shows signs of the groups he
is a part of - especially his gender group. JRK *tries* to show it - the
boys are dump, don't understand anything and we do not see any sign of 'boy
groups' at all. Girls are emotional experts, are sensitive and act as parts
of social groups, i.e. peer groups. Well.

k12listmomma wrote:
> I think you are looking at Harry and Ron, and maybe missing Malfoy
> and his
> gang. Boys do fight, and such, and we definitely see that with Dudley
> and
> his gang, and with Malfoy and his gang. Harry and Ron don't get into
> fights? Baloney- they are tempted to in the many scenes when Malfoy
> confronts them (as a bully) in the hallway or in Potions class, and
> in most of those scenes
> that Rowling writes, there is a teacher nearby that prevents them from
> really going at it, or Hermione is there to nag them to behave.
> Malfoy baits

Miles:
Sorry, you missed my point. I spoke about fights IN the peer group. And not
only physical fights - to see who is the "alpha Gryffindor" in his year, and
in the entire House. Now, where do we see anything like that?

Geoff Bannister wrote:
> Coming up to the current thread, we have to remember that we are
> only seeing part of the Hogwarts year. In Philosopher's Stone for
> example, out of a 45-46 week year if you count the Christmas and
> Easter holidays as well as the three terms, how much time do we
> really share with the Trio?

Miles:
I have to repeat what I posted earlier in this mail: The films are even
shorter, but they show more "boy's social life" than the books. Why?

Geoff Bannister cited:
>> JKR nailed male relationships very well with this one. For
>> women, a good friend is someone with whom they can cry,
>> share emotions, discuss whatever. To a man (at least in
>> Teens and Tweens) a good friend is someone who is there,
>> shows loyalty and doesn't pry into emotional issues. The girls
>> (Hermy, Cho, Jenny) are the one that keeps bringing up the
>> topics Harry wants to avoid (death, dreams, etc). Neville's
>> comment after Sirius dies is as intimate a question as any
>> guy would get with another guy. If Ron were asking the
>> questions that Hermione asks and Harry didn't blow his top,
>> then I'd say the people who think Harry is light in the loafers
>> may have a leg to stand on.

Miles:
Who exactly are the male friends of Harry? Who are the boys he relates to in
a non-superficial way? Where are the boys he is hanging around with apart
from Quidditch practice and school lessons?

Miles, who really likes to see so many replies to his original post. It's so
easy, just post a critical remark about JKR, and loads of people can't keep
their fingers off the keyboards ;)