Kreacher the Plot Device Elf

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 161797

> bboyminn:
> 
> Almost, but no cigar. There is no indication that Dobby 
> is or was ever less than a hard working dutiful 
> house-elf. At Hogwarts, Dobby even does work that the
> other Elves have refused to do; specifically cleaning up
> Griffindor Common Room when it is filled with hiden 
> clothes. So, Dobby is certainly a hard worker. 

Magpie:
Looks like a cigar to me. Dobby's not hard-working or dutiful to the 
Malfoys when he actively works against them. When he cleans up the 
Common Room he's actively working against the house-elves. They're 
trying to make a point and he's shutting up their protest. So hard-
working, sure, but to his personal interests. The other elves aren't 
less hard-working, they're reacting to Hermione's insult, which she 
doesn't know about thanks to Dobby. I wasn't saying Dobby was lazy, 
but that he wasn't dutiful or loyal to his Malfoy masters. And he 
doesn't always work with the house elves either.

bboyminn:
> 
> Dobby's actions 'against' the Malfoy's is similar to 
> Kreacher betrayal of Sirius, but there is a difference.
> Dobby acted to save someone and did so in a way the 
> wasn't really detrimental to his master. Note that I 
> said 'in a way' not detrimental. It certainly did 
> attempt to foul Malfoy's plan, but did not attempt or 
> intend to cause direct harm to the Malfoys.

Magpie:
It seems like you're just excusing Dobby because you already agree 
with him, and using his actions as the model of a good elf (which I 
guess is why you're putting 'against' in quotes when it seems like 
the right word to me). How is Dobby passing information to Harry so 
potentially less damaging to Lucius in itself than Kreacher's 
information about Harry is to Sirius? Obviously I get the more 
sinister nature of Kreacher's actions in the plot, but if you're 
just looking at it from the pov of being loyal to your family and 
the results of the actions Dobby's actions could have had worse 
results for Lucius and Kreacher's actions might not have led to any 
harm to Sirius. There was, after all, a bit of randomness to Sirius' 
death. So I don't think we can just assume that Kreacher knew his 
actions would harm any 'people who matter' (which to his pov means 
loyal Blacks) any more than Dobby. Kreacher wanting to cause harm to 
Sirius wouldn't make him worthless as a house elf no matter who the 
master is, it would make him the enemy of Sirius and his allies.

bboyminn:
> 
> As to Winky, as others have pointed out, she still 
> considers herself Crouch's house-elf as all her prior
> family had been. I further think she believes that 
> her absents from the family contributed to Barty's 
> death. So, she has both guilt and shame hanging over
> her and heavily weighting her down. That is indeed
> a heavy wieght to carry.
> 
> Though, I have no doubt that Winky has the capability
> of being a fine house-elf if she could get herself into
> a situation where she felt like she was part of the 
> family again. Maybe when she and Dobby come to work for
> Harry, she will be happy again.

Magpie:
It seems like you're just explaining Winky's attitude in a more 
positive way and assuming a lot of things you're not assuming about 
Kreacher, who also has reason to be weighed down when we meet him. 
There's nothing to suggest Winky would ever come and work for Harry, 
or that Harry is hiring any house elves, or that Winky would become 
happy working for Harry where she isn't happy working at Hogwarts. 
Kreacher himself has already surpassed GoF!Winky's state in HBP.

bboyminn:> 
> Kreacher on the other hand, I believe, is too far 'round
> the bend to ever be a fully functional house-elf. True
> under better circumstances he may be able to find some
> family who would take him in and tolerate him until he
> finally died, but I think his level of service would be
> marginal at best.
> I think Kreacher would truly try to be a good elf, if 
> for example he worked for Narcissa or Belatrix, but I
> honestly don't think he is capable of succeeding. Like
> I said, he is mentally and phyically too far around the
> bend.

Magpie:
Why exactly would you think that, given his actions? He provided 
service to the Blacks in OotP on his own initiative, and provided a 
service to Harry in HBP, while also trying to protect Draco due to 
his true loyalty to the Blacks. Doesn't sound round the bend to me 
at all. He's described as old in OotP, but I can't think of too many 
scenes where he seemed so physically limited in HBP. And even if he 
was, you suggest that Harry ought to be opening a house elf 
retirement home where they catalog things, which would suggest you 
don't consider old house elves worthless.

bboyminn:
> 
> Just to re-emphasize this point, I think under the best 
> of circumstances Kreacher service would be marginally 
> acceptable at best. Though that is more a cause for pity 
> than hate.
> 
> Just as Winky at the moment can't control her actions,
> neither can Kreacher. Kreacher state of being is a 
> warped result of time and circumstances, but again while
> he is to be pitied, he is not to be forgiven.

Magpie:
Kreacher himself says he loves the Blacks and his old mistress.  I'm 
disturbed at the way that's easily dismissed as just mental damage 
that he can't control. Kreacher seems to be controlling his actions 
very clearly to me, and being guided by his own affections and 
loyalty. He just doesn't like any of the people who've moved into 
the Black's house, and that wasn't going to change if they gave him 
cake while they cleaned the house of memories of the people he was 
loyal to himself. However Kreacher came to feel the way he does, 
this is how he feels, and his actions are consistent with that.

> Betsy Hp (who thinks it's a mistake to link house-elves to human
> slaves but has to run and so can't say more than that. <g>)
>

Alla:

I guess I disagree here in a sense that IMO JKR was pretty clear in
interviews that house-elves is a metaphor for slavery.

Magpie:
But what's the metaphor? Human slaves don't have a culture where 
they're offended at freedom, and enjoy slavery and consider it an 
honor, or look down on freed slaves, or feel personally guilty and 
want to be punished when they disobey their masters.

-m