Freedom for House-Elves (Was: Kreacher the Plot Device Elf)

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 162059

Ceridwen then:
> > House elves bring another layer of responsibility to their 
owners. Elves' natures, whether charmed or inborn, mean they want to 
serve wizards and witches.

a_svirn:
> That's rather crucial distinction, though. If it is charmed, and we 
know it is – we've been told so, the fist responsibility of a decent 
wizard is to free them from those charms.

Ceridwen:
But Harry can't do that right now.  Kreacher is too dangerous to be 
tossed out.

Ceridwen then:
> > They fear freedom, from what I get from the  books.

a_svirn:
> So what? Human slaves are also known to fear freedom. That's what 
slavery does to a person – cripple them mentally. Especially if the 
said person was born in slavery and doesn't know the difference.

Ceridwen:
And tossing a mentally crippled person out to face their fear alone 
is cruel.  To be free from both slavery *and* fear, elves need to 
know there is something out there for them, work to provide what was 
once provided by their masters.  It may be a miserable life to be a 
slave, but sentient beings want so much to survive that they put up 
with a lot since at least they're not in danger of dying overnight in 
the cold, and where there is life, there is always hope.  It would be 
grossly cruel and negligent to turn elves loose to die, in my 
opinion.  This would amount to genocide, or very well could amount to 
it, and definitely would look like it would amount to that from the 
viewpoint of the ones being forced out of their homes and jobs.  
That's why I obliquely mentioned a WW catering service or temporary 
house elf employment service.  Something they can do, have been 
trained to do, someplace to find security in lieu of being slaves.  
Other than that department at the Ministry, what other employment is 
there for free agent house elves?  Will they be going from the frying 
pan straight into the fire?

Ceridwen then:
> > They wouldn't know how to manage for themselves, particularly 
with some compelling force making them want to work, work, work.

a_svirn:
> Dobby can manage for himself. So does Kreacher. And I didn't notice 
how Kreacher is being compelled to "work, work, work". Rather the 
opposite. In fact, even Winky doesn't seem to be compelled to "work, 
work, work".

Ceridwen:
Just a personal thing with me: just because Edmund Hillary climbed 
Mt. Everest, and Lance Armstrong won bicycle races, that doesn't mean 
that I can do either thing.  Hillary and Armstrong are exceptional 
people, and Dobby is an exceptional elf.  Kreacher manages for 
himself, yes.  As you mentioned above, in a part I snipped, elves 
seem to find food somehow.  I don't think it's right of Kreacher's 
owners to assume he will scrounge for food somehow.  This is an 
obligation of the owner, as long as there are owners and house 
elves.  But, to say that because Dobby did it, and Kreacher managed 
to survive, that all elves can and should be put into the same 
position, doesn't allow for individual talents, fears/strengths, and 
so on.

I think Winky is depressed.

Ceridwen then:
> > The  nature of elves, and the fact that there doesn't seem to be 
an employment agency renting them out for catered affairs and 
temporary  work - I don't count the relocation office, that seems to 
just send  elves to a new master's household - means that the owners 
are more  than just owners, they are the responsible parties for all 
of their  elves' needs.

a_svirn:
> On the contrary, it means that owners are exactly what they are – 
owners. They sell and by elves as if they were livestock, or used 
cars. And what's wrong with their nature? They seem to have all the 
emotions humans have. You don't think that Wooster has a right to 
*own* Jeeves just because Jeeves wants to serve Wooster?

Ceridwen:
They are still responsible for the things their elves can't get on 
their own.  Not all elves in the WW can go work at Hogwarts if 
they're tossed out.  And, we don't know that WW owners sell and buy 
slaves, or at least I can't remember a quote like that (I could be 
wrong, though!).  However the owners got the elves, through purchase 
or through some sort of hereditary thing, they are still responsible 
for the common form of payment.

I don't think Jeeves and Wooster are a similar case.  Jeeves can 
leave when he likes, and he can find other employment of the same or 
different variety.  Didn't Jeeves end up owning a pub?  From what it 
looks like in the WW, house elves at loose ends go to some Ministry 
department to be reassigned to another owner, there is no choice.  
Anyway, Wooster is responsible for paying Jeeves, and providing him 
lodging and a day off.  He doesn't have the extent of responsibility 
of a WW owner since Jeeves can leave to pursue any career he chooses.

Ceridwen then:
> > If wizards really want to do something constructive for the 
future of elves, they will have to address the fear of freedom, and 
the lack of some sort of employment that will not send elves from one 
place of slavery to another.

a_svirn:
> Which means they have to set them free. How does one address fear 
of freedom? The only way to fight fear, any fear is to offer 
security. If wizards replaced the elves relocation office with the 
elves social well-fair office, I think elves would fear freedom less.

Ceridwen:
I think if there were other employment options, elves would have 
little if anything to fear that wasn't culturally induced, which of 
course generations of slavery is.  How noble of the WW to generously 
provide elves with yet another slavery position!  I think they ought 
to get out of it and let the free market work.  Even if elves begin 
by hiring out as temporary home workers and caterers, they can branch 
out into industry and sales, and other usual forms of work.  But, for 
right now, Harry can't free Kreacher because Kreacher is too much of 
a danger, and to make sure that Kreacher won't go against him, he has 
to issue orders.  Which, in this particular case, makes the 
master/slave relationship necessary to the wider problem of defeating 
Voldemort.  In my opinion, of course!

Betsy Hp:
> IMO, I think it's more what encompasses Harry's responsibility. 
>From what I'm understanding, both you and Ceridwen seem to feel that 
Kreacher's mental well-being is dependent upon Harry giving him 
chores. It doesn't matter if the particular assignment forces 
Kreacher to betray a family he loves (spying on Draco), as long as 
Kreacher is busy.

Ceridwen:
Hm?  I said that?  I sure didn't mean to!  I can't speak for Carol, 
but I had hoped to say that it seems that elves have no other option 
than to work as slaves.  The suits their nature, whether this nature 
is inborn or enchanted on them.  They have no other recourse, no 
place to go where they can get gainful employment to meet their 
needs.  Leaving aside the moral wrong of actually owning a sentient 
being for the moment, a WW owner of a house elf has to take this lack 
of other options into consideration as well as the obvious 
responsibilities of bed and board.  Harry's responsibilities toward 
Kreacher go beyond making sure he is housed and fed.  He also has to 
consider Kreacher's other options in the world outside of his 
hereditary employment.  And in this particular case, Harry also has 
to consider Kreacher's other options, Bellatrix and Narcissa, as 
potential dangers, but that is just in this case.

Kreacher's mental well-being is Kreacher's responsibility.  He can 
work and hate it, or he can work and like it.  He indicates, or the 
story does, that he liked working for the Blacks.  He disliked 
working for the disowned son, and he really dislikes working for 
Harry.  He doesn't seem capable, or perhaps willing, to leave his 
secure position the way Dobby did.  So he shows his discontent in 
other ways.  But it makes him more miserable, too. 

And, thinking so much about Kreacher, did Harry ever rescind the 
order to stop following Draco?  Or is Kreacher still following him?

Ceridwen, sure she just muddied her section of the waters a little 
more instead of clarifying.