SecrtKeeperEvidence/Chapter21questions/GhostsVsInferii/GH Attack/InvisiCloaks

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 158941

Leah wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158694>:

<< What is not explained is why James and Lily refused the offer of
Secret Keeping from 'the only one Voldemort ever feared'. >>

Dumbledore would not have been able to go into hiding, because he had
too many other responsibilities. Perhaps he would have been safe from
LV ordering DEs to catch him and torture the Secret out of him, due to
LV fearing him, but the Potters atill would not have liked to add that
risk to the risks he already bore. They were 21 or 22 years old, and I
will be 49 next month (November) so I suspect they had a strong
unconscious desire to take care of themselves instead of having
grown-ups take care of them.

zgirnius wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158696>:

<< Sirius strikes me as someone who would believe he could withstand
torture. >>

Sirius's 'clever' plan *depended* on his ability to withstand torture.
If he were caught (and I believe that he intended to be careless about
hiding, so as to act as bait) and tortured to give up the Secret, he
couldn't give up the Secret AND he also WOULD NOT tell that Peter was
the real Secret Keeper. So if he died or went mad fromm the torture,
the DEs would think the Secret was lost in him forever and give up. I
don't believe he was planning: "If they catch me, if I break under
torture and tell them that Peter is the Secret Keeper, they'll never
believe me, so it'll be okay if I break."

Alla wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158702>:

<< [Dumbledore] took it upon himself (unless you would argue that
Fudge somehow forced him to come forward) to step up with the
**evidence** that Sirius was a Secret Keeper, and just as Sherry said
I am not sure I remember stellar cannon support that James told him
about Sirius being secret keeper (even if he did, I think DD had to
investigate further, but I am not sure that he did). Dumbledore took
it upon himself to help condemn Sirius as far as I am concerned and
before he did that, he IMO should have been absolutely sure that the
evidence he had was a strong one. >>

The Department of Magical Law Enforcement (at least they aren't
hypocritical enough to call it the Department of Justice) was
investigating two serious crimes: the murder of James and Lily Potter,
and the murder of 12 Muggles and Pettigrew. I think they called
Dumbledore as a witness rather than him volunteering. 

If he had refused to testify on the grounds that "This Department is
too corrupt and incompetent to catch the right criminal, so only I can
be trusted to carry out an honest investigation", many more people
would think he was arrogant. (Like Tonks_op in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158804>: 
<< In RL if you are called into court to testify you must tell what
you know. >>.)

Even if he volunteered to give information to the investigation, that
is behavior that is generally considered right behavior for modern
Muggles in democratic countries. Tell the authorities what you know
about a crime that they have announced that they are investigating.

Marianne Kiricat summarized Chapter 21 in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158739> with
questions:

<< 1. Harry increasingly turns to his Potions book when he is at a
loss. Why has he come to rely on the Prince as his major source of
inspiration or guidance, even for things outside the field of
Potions? >>

I believe that young Snape charmed his book to repel most people
(Hermione hates it and Ron can't read the writing) but to attract
Lily, and the result of Harry having Lily's eyes is that the book
attracts and seduces Harry. I think Lily might have been more
resistant to seduction, having had practise resisting being seduced by
people.

<< 2. Harry doesn't know the effects of Sectumsempra. What does his
eagerness to try it tell us about him? >>

Being seduced by Sectumsempra was just part of being seduced by the
book. Btw I, even seeing that 'sectum-sempra' means 'cut forever',
thought it was a spell for turning a pair of friends into a pair of
enemies, and was surprised that it was a virtual knife.

<< 3. Harry thinks Snape will mark him down on the Dementor essay.
Does Hogwarts strike you as a place that encourages thinking in
alternative ways? Or do classes seem geared towards rote learning? >>

I think Harry's thought is only about Snape, that Snape is so arrogant
and rigid that he can't stand anyone to disagree with him.

<< 4. Do you think SPEW will be back in Book 7? >>

It had *better* be, or all that page-time it got in GoF was a waste.

<< 5. Why do elves never Apparate with a soft pop, but always with a
loud "crack?" >>

As Eddie HarryP wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158762>: << So
their masters know when they are there. No sneaking up allowed. >>
(Hey, Eddie, I saw the extra-points joke.)

<< 6. Do you think it's likely that MWPP did not know of the Room of
Requirement, or is Hermione right in assuming that the room is
Unplottable? >>

As Zgirnius wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158753>: << I
very much doubt they knew about the ROR. Nobody suggested it to Harry
as a good place to hold the DA meetings - didn't Sirius suggest the
Shrieking Shack, which would require getting out of the castle at
night? >> And Sirius suggested the little room behind the mirror on
the fourth floor, which not only had been made inaccessible by a
recent rockfall, but was only big enough for four people.

If so many students over the years have known about the RoR, so as to
have a HUGE warehouse of items hidden and never retrieved, I don't
understand how MWPP didn't, but Fred & George knew of it only as a
small closet in which they hid from Filch.

<< 8. After 5-plus years at Hogwarts, is Ron really clueless on how to
use a wand to clean up spilled ink? >>

Maybe that spell is more difficult than we think.

<< 12. How much of Myrtle's description of sensitive, bullied, lonely
Draco is her own imagination? >>

I think JKR was making fun of Draco fangirls there, like Potioncat in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158746>: << Just
like all the other Draco-fans, she's confused him with the actor.
Sorry, I mean, it's mostly her imagination. >>

But I also agree with Magpie in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158749>: << we
see it just as she described it in the Sectumsempra scene. Draco is
showing his feelings, being sensitive, crying. And he's being bullied
- by Voldemort. >>  (There have been posts in the past explaining how
Draco could believe that he was being bullied by Harry (that he
started it himself having slipped his mind), but I believe his current
realistic fear for his life and his parents' lives put that right out
of his mind.)

So Myrtle was believing Draco's self-image rather than her own
imagination.

<< 13. Is Hermione's puzzlement regarding Tonks' activities a clue
that something sinister is going on, or is this a red herring that is
later explained away by Tonks' love for Remus? >>

I still can't believe all that Tonks stuff was just red herrings. I
still think it must be clues that 'Tonks' who can't metamorph and
isn't clumsy is someone else Polyjuiced into Tonks. Which side is the
fake Tonks on? She saved Harry in the train and perhaps was guarding
him in this scene. If only she were Polyjuiced Sirius!

<< 14. If Tonks' underlying concern was for news on the whereabouts or
well-being of Remus, is this sufficient reason for her to leave her
post? >>

No, of course not, and why would she expect to find news of Remus in
the corridor outside the RoR? Was she intending to go into the Room
while thinking 'I need news of Remus'? If she did that, how would the
news come to her?

<< 15. Do you find it strange that Dumbledore would not alert those
guarding Hogwarts, especially those who are members of the Order, to
his own absences from the school? >>

Yes. Maybe he did, but the fake Tonks wasn't one of the guards or
Order members.

<< 16. Hermione insists on at least four different occasions in this
chapter that Harry is wrong to try to think of a magically-induced way
to pry Slughorn's memory from him. Yet, Harry does end up using a
potion on himself. Is Hermione wrong in her opinion that the key to
unlocking Slughorn is something innate in Harry? >>

I think Rowling meant for the Felix Felicis potion to be a mere
placebo that only gives Harry confidence, not abilities. Because of
the conversation the Trio has about it:
<<"It's a great feeling when you take it," said Ron reminiscently.
"Like you can't do anything wrong."
"What are you talking about?" said Hermione, laughing. "You've never
taken any!" 
"Yeah, but I thought I had, didn't I?" said Ron, as though ex-plaining
the obvious. "Same difference really ..." >>

But the description of Harry' experience sounds like FF potion really
is magic, something akin to Divination but more reliable: <<Why he
knew that going to Hagrid's was the right thing to do, he had no idea.
It was as though the potion was illuminating a few steps of the path
at a time. (snip) It was when he reached the bottom step that it
occurred to him how very pleasant it would be to pass the vegetable
patch on his walk to Hagrid's. It was not strictly on the way, but it
seemed clear to Harry that this was a whim on which he should act,
(snip) Seized with an immediate desire to reveal himself, Harry pulled
off the cloak with a flourish.>> and so on. 

Tonks_op wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158882>:

<< The other thing is that Ghosts are souls that are still on this
side of the veil. The Inferni do not have a soul that is in this
world. They seem to be just animated corpses. >>

I agree about Inferii, but according to Snape in that very chapter,
Ghosts are not souls: "A ghost, as I trust that you are all aware by
now, is the imprint of a departed soul left upon the earth". A
*departed* soul. No, I don't claim to understand how 'the imprint of a
soul' can have opinions and desires and actions and free will, which
Sir Nick certainly seems to display.

<< The evil wizard calls upon the `demons' to do his bidding. They,
like Rowling's inferni, have no free choice. The work is done in the
spiritual world. >>

Now I must disagree. Snape said: ""The Inferius is a corpse that has
been reanimated by a Dark wizard's spells. It is not alive, it is
merely used like a puppet to do the wizard's bidding." It is a PUPPET
made of meat, NOT a being with a mind or will that is overpowered by
something like Imperius. The demons have enough minds of their own to
complain about their enslavement and try to trick the enchanter into
releasing them.

Ceridwen wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158905>:

<< If [Snape] was in on [the Godric's Hollow attack], he must have
known that Peter Pettigrew was the SK, yet in PoA he seems to
sincerely believe that Sirius was the cause of all this trouble. I've
suggested a note, a la Dumbledore's note to Harry in OotP, but no one
likes that idea. >>

Am I no one?

But in addition to having been told the secret without knowing that
Pettigrew was telling the Secret, he also would have had to not know
that Pettigrew was a member of the attack party. 

I think the attack party consisted of Voldemort, Pettigrew, Snape, and
Lucius Malfoy, because of Harry's dream the night after being Sorted:
"-- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it --
then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh
became high and cold -- there was a burst of green light and Harry
woke,sweating and shaking." That part of the dream is a memory. The
high cold laughter is LV, the burst of green light is AV, Draco Malfoy
is Lucius Malfoy, whom Harry had not yet met, but who looks and sounds
so very much like his son. Snape is Snape. Therefore Lucius and Snape
were present during the attack.

As for Pettigrew, who did not appear in the dream, I believe that JKR
answered some where that he picked up LV's wand from the wreckage and
hid it somewhere and retrieved it when he brought LV back to Britain
(even tho' I can't find the quote). Until it was stated in OoP that
Voldemort is a Legilimens, I thought all that talk about Lord
Voldemort being able to tell when anyone is lying was itself a lie. So
then it made sense that LV would bring Pettigrew with him, in fact
make Pettigrew walk in front of him, in case Pettigrew was leading him
into an ambush. But once I knew that LV really could read minds, he
could know that Pettigrew was telling him the truth without resorting
to such a crude tactic. So why bring him? Just to make readers wonder
how Snape could fail to know that Sirius was innocent?

Rebecca Brown asked in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158930>:

<< Via Ron, we're told IC's are rare- where did Moody's 2 (I think he
has 2 - it's confusing to me) come from? Where did James get his?
Where did Barty Crouch get his to cover Jr in GoF? >>

As I quoted in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/158683>:
<http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-aol-chat.htm> says:

<<Q: Where did James get his Invisibility Cloak?
JKR: That was inherited from his own father -- a family heirloom! >>

I feel pretty sure that Real!Moody's second cloak is the Crouches'
cloak. Both Crouches were gone (one dead, one Demented) by the time
Real!Moody was rescued, and hadn't Fake!Moody packed his cloak in
Real!Moody's trunk of seven insides?

It was at one time suggested that Invisibility Cloaks were given to
Aurors to use in their job and then keep. (Or buying, or otherwise
acquiring one, could be a job requirement for Aurors. Maybe Aurors who
aren't from rich families pay on an installment plan.) That could be
how both Moody and Crouch Sr got cloaks -- it is not unlikely that
Crouch Sr started as an Auror before working up to Head of Magical Law
Enforcement. It might even be how James's father or ancestor got their
cloak.